Originally posted by Suzianne
I get what you're saying with all this, Bob, but I avoid all this simply by saying that we, as Christians, aren't just "betting" that "He is", but that we "know" that "He is".

Calling it a bet indicates that we aren't sure, that we are merely playing "the odds". But we ARE sure. We DO know.

Suzi, as I replied to twhitehead, "we're examining an obverse possibility/counterpart hypothetical". For once on this spirituality forum wouldn't it be astringent and refreshing to all parties invested in the outcomes of their decisions which have eternal consequences to drain the swamp of any and all pro and con arguments? Wouldn't Pascal be pleased?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Pascal was a philosopher and mathematician, so I think his wager was more of an intellectual exercise than anything else. No one needs to believe or disbelieve the existence of God in order to understand the logic behind his reasoning.

If you give up a particular sin or pleasure, and there is no God to hold you accountable, then all you've really lost ...[text shortened]... s.


But Mr Pascal, what's the point of flipping a coin if I already know the outcome?

Pascal was a philosopher and mathematician, so I think his wager was more of an
intellectual exercise than anything else ...

The guy was a brilliant mathematician...

Right up until he had a "personal experience" with god, made possibly the worst argument
for believing in god in all of history, and did nothing further of use the rest of his life.

What further insights might we have had if this hadn't happened...

I class this as a classic example of the harm that religion can cause.

Originally posted by OdBod
And that Suzianne is the perfect example of why religion is so destructive, it can't answer basic fundamental questions. But what is worse it creates a mind set that does not allow rational discussion, Cognitive Dissonance kicks in and crucial questions are avoided.

Sometimes even religion has simple answers. You might have answered as you did here if I had gone into minute detail with some hard-to-follow theory about it. But I see that insults also seem to kick in when I try to answer in the simplest, easiest to understand way. I don't see where my answer wasn't rational, or exhibited cognitive dissonance. And I did answer, so evasion wasn't really my plan there, either.

Originally posted by googlefudge

Pascal was a philosopher and mathematician, so I think his wager was more of an
intellectual exercise than anything else ...

The guy was a brilliant mathematician...

Right up until he had a "personal experience" with god, made possibly the worst argument
for believing in god in all of history, and did nothing further of use the r ...[text shortened]... his hadn't happened...

I class this as a classic example of the harm that religion can cause.

Perhaps the man had finally found happiness and so retired from his profession to live out the rest of his life in relative ease and peace of mind.

Everything's so convoluted and complicated for you guys, isn't it?

Yet you claim that we're the ones making life difficult.

Originally posted by googlefudge

Pascal was a philosopher and mathematician, so I think his wager was more of an
intellectual exercise than anything else ...

The guy was a brilliant mathematician...

Right up until he had a "personal experience" with god, made possibly the worst argument
for believing in god in all of history, and did nothing further of use the rest ...[text shortened]... hadn't happened...

I class this as a classic example of the harm that religion can cause.

"Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief." -Oscar Wilde

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Suzi, as I replied to twhitehead, "we're examining an obverse possibility/counterpart hypothetical". For once on this spirituality forum wouldn't it be astringent and refreshing to all parties invested in the outcomes of their decisions which have eternal consequences to drain the swamp of any and all pro and con arguments? Wouldn't Pascal be pleased?

Perhaps.

I just tend towards simplicity, is all.

And I know I may regret saying this, but I've never really been one for mental gymnastics. Yes, I have imagination, but I also don't consider God and "fiction" getting along, either. They both have their place, but perhaps "never the twain shall meet".

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief." -Oscar Wilde

I have never really understood this quote. Maybe it's popular with the anti-"religion" (name only) crowd, or those who claim Christianity is not a religion. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Originally posted by googlefudge

Pascal was a philosopher and mathematician, so I think his wager was more of an
intellectual exercise than anything else ...

The guy was a brilliant mathematician...

Right up until he had a "personal experience" with god, made possibly the worst argument
for believing in god in all of history, and did nothing further of use the r ...[text shortened]... his hadn't happened...

I class this as a classic example of the harm that religion can cause.

It doesn't matter if you believe or disbelieve in the existence of God. Atheists typically react to Pascals Wager as being a reason for believing in God, and Christians will often make the same mistake.

It may have been Pascals intent to overcome dismissals of God based on faulty reasoning, but the fact that he was a religious man is the most likely reason for him formulating that argument. I can't imagine an atheist coming up with something like that, because it opens (or re-opens) a door the atheist has already shut and locked behind him.

Originally posted by Suzianne
A lot of atheists use Occam's Razor as a justification to not believe in God at all, so I'm not exactly sure what you're on about.

A Christian bringing it up to justify believing in the literal word of the Bible is kind of laughable. There is far more to the Word of God than just simple words. Occam's Razor is kind of an idiot's argument. It's the lazy way out.

What I am on about is finding truth in scripture. You may consider me lazy in doing so, but I see that better than making up fables to fill in an imaginary gap. 😏

Originally posted by OdBod
Ok Suzianne, to take just one of your points, how do you reconcile free will with prophecy?

What do you find at odds with free will and prophecy?

Originally posted by Suzianne
I have never really understood this quote. Maybe it's popular with the anti-"religion" (name only) crowd, or those who claim Christianity is not a religion. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Well he also said, "“Religion is like a blind man looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't there, and finding it.”

He intended to be puzzling, methinks.

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
Actually, yes you are. You're being asked to give up your arrogance and your belief in nothing but your own opinion, your egoism and your egotism. That's hard for most atheists, who typically have nothing else to give them some feeling of self-worth.

You atheists see self-worth in coming from a premordial soup by accident. We Christians see our self-worth in coming from humans created on purpose in the image of God. 😏

Originally posted by JS357
GB bless his merry soul, likes to occassionally trot his horse Pascal's Wager out to see if anybody wants to place a bet. (There's gotta be a racehorse with that name!)

The sad thing is in my opinion this line of questioning, I think it displays
God in a very shallow light and really doesn't do anything towards meeting
God, since there are many who do believe in God who are going to go to
Hell, because they believe yet reject Him. The end goal has never been in
my opinion just believe there is a god, the end goal is God with us, that is
done only on God's terms.

Originally posted by OdBod
And that Suzianne is the perfect example of why religion is so destructive, it can't answer basic fundamental questions. But what is worse it creates a mind set that does not allow rational discussion, Cognitive Dissonance kicks in and crucial questions are avoided.

Christianity answers all the fundamental and crucial questions. However, atheists don't like the answers and ignore them by sticking their heads up their rear end. 😏

Originally posted by KellyJay
The sad thing is in my opinion this line of questioning, I think it displays
God in a very shallow light and really doesn't do anything towards meeting
God, since there are many who do believe in God who are going to go to
Hell, because they believe yet reject Him. The end goal has never been in
my opinion just believe there is a god, the end goal is God with us, that is
done only on God's terms.

I see your point. This line of questioning also relies on the rather nonsensical idea that people can somehow choose to believe something that they simply don't believe, as if that's the same as placing a bet on a horse (or whatever) that one doesn't believe will actually win. The analogy is rather silly.