1. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 Mar '12 19:351 edit
    KellyJay said - "..it is a relationship with Jesus as Lord that matters"
    Suzianne said - ".... Christ is all about one's personal relationship with Him. .."
    Knightmeister said - ".... the Bible .. talks about works as evidence of saving faith , ...."

    I cannot seem to find any of these apparently important statements in the Bible. Neither anything close to them. Can anyone assist with some references?

    The closest thing I found to having a [personal] relationship with Christ is in Matt 25 when Christ likens charitable works or loving / helping others to helping HIM .. ie you help others you help Christ.

    I know that there are Christians who claim to have met or seen Christ physically and spoken to Christ and claim to have conversations with Christ. To those Christians I say either 'lucky you' or 'yeah right'. Anyway, for the rest of us ordinary people what exactly does a relationship with Christ entail? Can anyone provide some details?

    Is it: praying, singing, clapping, talking in tongues, dressing up and going to church, giving loads of money to the already wealthy pastor, saying 'I love Jesus' all day, having pictures of Jesus on the wall, wearing Christian t-shirts, listening to Christian rock music, saying "Praise the Lord" all day .. what is it?

    Thanks.
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Mar '12 19:39
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    KellyJay said - "..it is a relationship with Jesus as Lord that matters"
    Suzianne said - ".... Christ is all about one's personal relationship with Him. .."
    Knightmeister said - ".... the Bible .. talks about works as evidence of saving faith , ...."

    I cannot seem to find any of these apparently important statements in the Bible. N ...[text shortened]... Christian rock music, saying "Praise the Lord" all day .. what is it?

    Thanks.
    You are famously taking things out of context and abusing points being made
    to you. You are a very dishonest person.
    Kelly
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 Mar '12 19:42
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You are famously taking things out of context and abusing points being made
    to you. You are a very dishonest person.
    Kelly
    If a relationship with Christ is so important [like you claimed] then it must be an easy matter to explain what it means in detail to someone.

    Please explain.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Mar '12 22:00
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    If a relationship with Christ is so important [like you claimed] then it must be an easy matter to explain what it means in detail to someone.

    Please explain.
    For me....

    It means knowing that I am incredibly loved in an intimate way. It's a realization that Christ knows me better than myself.

    It means knowing that Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceding for me when I fail and asking the Holy Spirit to bless me.

    It means knowing that I can come to Him in prayer and He will not turn me away but will accept me.

    It means knowing that He will rebuke me and tell me where I am going astray.

    It means loving Him by loving , helping and giving to others.

    It means hearing his voice within me as a reassuring quiet whisper of love that fills me with joy and peace

    It means confessing my sin to Him and trusting Him that he will make me more compassionate and loving.

    It means realizing that when I have been in trouble He has been there helping me

    It means being in a room and knowing that His Spirit and presence is actually there for real (where two or three are gathered in my name there will I be)

    It mean all these things and more............................


    This is all Biblical because Christ said explicitly that He would be with us and present amongst us via the Holy Spirit.

    Oh Rajk - do you not know His love and peace? Have you not felt the Holy Spirit melt your heart with the love of Christ? Have you not wept in His presence?
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Mar '12 22:28
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    If a relationship with Christ is so important [like you claimed] then it must be an easy matter to explain what it means in detail to someone.

    Please explain.
    It has been explained to you, you choose to ignore it.
    Kelly
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 Mar '12 23:24
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    For me....

    It means knowing that I am incredibly loved in an intimate way. It's a realization that Christ knows me better than myself.

    It means knowing that Christ is at the right hand of the Father interceding for me when I fail and asking the Holy Spirit to bless me.

    It means knowing that I can come to Him in prayer and He will not turn ...[text shortened]... elt the Holy Spirit melt your heart with the love of Christ? Have you not wept in His presence?
    Ok. Any references?
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    05 Mar '12 00:20
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    KellyJay said - "..it is a relationship with Jesus as Lord that matters"
    Suzianne said - ".... Christ is all about one's personal relationship with Him. .."
    Knightmeister said - ".... the Bible .. talks about works as evidence of saving faith , ...."

    I cannot seem to find any of these apparently important statements in the Bible. N ...[text shortened]... Christian rock music, saying "Praise the Lord" all day .. what is it?

    Thanks.
    "...what exactly does a relationship with Christ entail?"

    Read the first three chapters of Ephesians.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Mar '12 00:48
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"...what exactly does a relationship with Christ entail?"

    Read the first three chapters of Ephesians.[/b]
    Ephesians 1-3 is saying something totally different from what Knightmesiter is saying. I guess you dont agree with KM. Do you? No need to grovel about disagreeing with someone .. 🙂
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    05 Mar '12 00:55
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Ephesians 1-3 is saying something totally different from what Knightmesiter is saying. I guess you dont agree with KM. Do you? No need to grovel about disagreeing with someone .. 🙂
    You know Rajk, in all the years I've been posting in this forum I have intentionally avoided debating with those who call themselves Christian.

    But you asked the question, "...what exactly does a relationship with Christ entail?" Do you think the answer is in Ephesians? Do you agree with what it says?
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Mar '12 01:17
    Originally posted by josephw
    You know Rajk, in all the years I've been posting in this forum I have intentionally avoided debating with those who call themselves Christian.

    But you asked the question, [b]"...what exactly does a relationship with Christ entail?"
    Do you think the answer is in Ephesians? Do you agree with what it says?[/b]
    I totally agree. Ephesians starts off with a detailed explanation of the concept of grace. We are saved by the death of Christ. Its a gift of God that we did not deserve. But that 'saved is not the saved that many Christians interpret it to mean. That saved is saved from the sin of Adam. Adam sinned and we all inherited sin... 'the wages of sin is death' We would die in our sins regardless of how good we were, and we would have no hope for salvation. But now we have a chance at eternal life .. "the gift of God is eternal life through Christ .."

    So saved by grace, means that Christ's death is our saving grace by which we can, CAN, IF and only IF, we have faith and we obey Christ. Christ grace cannot and will not save anyone who claims to have faith with their mouth but their heart is far from him. Christ grace will not save anyone who continues in sin or fails to follow his commandments.

    All those statements I made have very clear Biblical support. If you need references I can provide them.

    But that saving grace of Christ can be converted into eternal life by our actions... faith and good works.

    BOTH are necessary for salvation.

    So what many Christians describe as a "relationship with Christ" is really a one way relationship .. they receive Christ's gift of grace, but they refuse to return the favour by obeying the commandments of Christ, chief of which is to love your neighbour as yourself.

    That is wrong in my opinion.
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    05 Mar '12 01:30
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I totally agree. Ephesians starts off with a detailed explanation of the concept of grace. We are saved by the death of Christ. Its a gift of God that we did not deserve. But that 'saved is not the saved that many Christians interpret it to mean. That saved is saved from the sin of Adam. Adam sinned and we all inherited sin... 'the wages of sin is death' We ...[text shortened]... chief of which is to love your neighbour as yourself.

    That is wrong in my opinion.
    Are you looking for an argument Rajk? 😉

    May I ask you this? If salvation is a gift and it is received by faith, and not by doing good works, then how is it that you say we must do good works in order to be saved?
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    05 Mar '12 01:561 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    Are you looking for an argument Rajk? 😉

    May I ask you this? If salvation is a gift and it is received by faith, and not by doing good works, then how is it that you say we must do good works in order to be saved?
    actually Raj makes an excellent point, the Jesus in Me brigade have missed the point
    entirely, for while emphasising personal salvation, personal relationship and personal
    choice, they fail to understand that Christianity and the love demonstrated by the
    Christ is about self sacrifice and concern for other people, that is putting others
    interests ahead of ones own, it was never about self interest, never.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Mar '12 01:57
    Originally posted by josephw
    Are you looking for an argument Rajk? 😉

    May I ask you this? If salvation is a gift and it is received by faith, and not by doing good works, then how is it that you say we must do good works in order to be saved?
    Read over the post. I explained it.

    We are saved from the sin which we inherited from Adam through the death of Christ. Christ death paid the ransom for us. That is what is meant by 'saved by grace'.

    Christ death does not save everyone, neither does it automatically give everyone salvation who simply proclaims their faith in Christ.

    So my counter question is .. How can you claim to have faith in Christ if you dont do good works and follow His commandments ? Sounds like a hypocritical position to get caught in. [ note 'you' is not you personally .. its a general statement]

    The only way out of that dilemma is to accept ALL the teachings of Christ and acknowledge that Faith in Christ PLUS Good Works are NECESSARY.

    Christ spoke at length about the importance of good works. He said it was necessary. Do you want the references ?

    I hope you are not saying that we can claim to have faith, and then proceed to sin and do evil works and still get eternal life. Are you ?
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    05 Mar '12 01:59
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I totally agree. Ephesians starts off with a detailed explanation of the concept of grace. We are saved by the death of Christ. Its a gift of God that we did not deserve. But that 'saved is not the saved that many Christians interpret it to mean. That saved is saved from the sin of Adam. Adam sinned and we all inherited sin... 'the wages of sin is death' We ...[text shortened]... chief of which is to love your neighbour as yourself.

    That is wrong in my opinion.
    So why did Christ need to die if we could work our way to God? There was
    all kinds of sacrifices going on, there was all kinds of rituals, all kinds of good
    works, why did Jesus need to die in your opinion since I guess it didn't do
    anything other than put us back to square one of earning our salvation by
    works all over again. This again is NOT a statement that we will not be doing
    good works, I have never said that.
    Kelly
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    05 Mar '12 02:072 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    So why did Christ need to die if we could work our way to God? There was
    all kinds of sacrifices going on, there was all kinds of rituals, all kinds of good
    works, why did Jesus need to die in your opinion since I guess it didn't do
    anything other than put us back to square one of earning our salvation by
    works all over again. This again is NOT a statement that we will not be doing
    good works, I have never said that.
    Kelly
    so lets get this, a Christian is not required to do anything, he or she can sit and gather
    cobwebs while the very stones cry out and everything is fine and dandy, salvation
    assured! Is that it? Puts a whole new meaning on the term, self sacrifice.
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