Praying Through Jesus not To Jesus

Originally posted by galveston75
Really? Where does the Bible say he is equal to God? Make sure you show me that scripture because I can show you where it say Jesus never once considered himself equal to his father.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:5-11 NKJV)

NOTICE JESUS WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD BUT HUMBLED HIMSELF TO COME IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.

I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

(John 17:4-5 NKJV)

NOTICE HERE THAT AFTER FINISHING HIS WORK IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN, JESUS ASKED TO BE GLORIFIED WITH THE GLORY HE HAD WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.


(1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV)

THERE IS NO CONTROVERY THAT GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH TO THE EARLY CHRISTIANS.

There are also other verses that identifies Jesus as the image of the invisible God and if one sees Jesus it is equal to seeing God the Father. There are other verses that identifies the preincarnate Jesus as the creator of everything that was created in the beginning and the one that appeared to Moses as the messenger of God and told Moses to use Yah, meaning I AM, for His name.

Originally posted by RBHILL
John 5:18 and also Jesus uses the words "I AM"!

http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/john-518-making-himself-equal-god

Also Philippians 2:5-11 but mainly verse 6; it also references back to Isaiah 52:13-15.

I am very slowly reading all of your thoughtful responses. First I wanted to thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully respond. Many questions have been asked of me and I shall try my level best to explain in my own words and in the words of the Bible what I mean by praying thru Jesus and not to Jesus. In an honest effort to distance myself from past cut and pasters I shall try explain in my own words and will invite any and all questions should there be any. This will be done over several posts as I want to make sure I answer and address all questions that have been asked of me. Thank you again for your thoughtful replies and your continued patience. I look forward to more thoughtful discussion.

Beau

Originally posted by RJHinds
How about this? Do we have another Jehovah's Witness in the house?

RJHinds: Indeed. Yes I am a Jehovah's Witness. But I was not always that way. In fact I was raised in a very strict Irish Catholic home.

One day seven years in a sterotypical sense two Jehovah Witnesses came knocking on my door, and in a sterotypical sense I slammed the door in their face.

Luckily my wife (who is far more patient than I am) told me I should be ashamed of myself. She opened the door and appologized for my worldly behavior. They talked to us for nearly 30 minutes. They then invited us to a Bible study and invited us to the Kingdom Hall. My wife agreed under the condition that if we go to the Kingdom Hall they would come back for a Bible study and for dinner to further appologize for me slamming the door.

My wife attended far more studies than I at first, and at first (probably for the first 2 years) I resisted all the way. Then something slowly began to change and I saw what these very loving and thoughtful people were saying was the truth. I can't explain why it happened and it certainly was not an overnight thing, but after awhile I found that I enjoyed being around these people and I enjoyed going to Bible studies and I enjoyed learning more. The more I learned, the more I wanted to learn. Not sure if this came from my academic nature and university professor background, but the research and the study became intoxicating. Soon I looked forward to meetings and I looked forward to knocking on doors and meeting new people. On June 22, 2011 my wife and I were baptized together as Jehovah's Witnesses.

I hope that answers your thoughtful question. If you would like to know more I encourage you to ask.

Beau

Originally posted by beauroberts
RJHinds: Indeed. Yes I am a Jehovah's Witness. But I was not always that way. In fact I was raised in a very strict Irish Catholic home.

One day seven years in a sterotypical sense two Jehovah Witnesses came knocking on my door, and in a sterotypical sense I slammed the door in their face.

Luckily my wife (who is far more patient than I am) told ...[text shortened]... answers your thoughtful question. If you would like to know more I encourage you to ask.

Beau

I also studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses for awhile and agree that they do a good job of teaching their theology and doctrines. In my case, I was already baptized into a Baptist Church and had been taught enough Christian theology and doctrines to recognize that some of what they taught had already been condemned as heresy by the Church. The main heresy that I recognized immediately was the Arian heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

Originally posted by divegeester
And yet every miracle performed in Acts was done in the name of Jesus and every person who came into the faith was baptised into the name of Jesus, after Jesus himself said baptise in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY GHOST.

What is the name of the father then, the ONLY name given by which men may be saved?

Or are their 2 fathers as well as two savours and 2 Gods.

divegeester: I too was hung up on this for a long time and it was an obstacle I could not wrap my head around. I had always been told God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. At the same time, I had trouble understanding (as I think we all do) the nature of God. Then I had a problem with addressing the problem of evil in this world and overcoming this obstacle. I came to a few conclusions.

God is Love. God is Kindness. God is Patience and Understanding and Comfort. All of these aspects as I understood them represented what God was and is. God is not mysterious. God is not quizzical. God does not represent confusion. Thinking of things this way led to a new clarity for me.

I became confused by this concept of the trilogy which had been taken from prior religions in order to make Christianity more successful. God is simple and loving and easy to understand. I was repeatedly drawn to Jesus' words "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me." John 8:42. Operating under the belief at the time that God is the Son this passage confused me which went against my understanding of God being a God of clarity and uderstanding. In this passage Jesus states that if you love God as your Father then you also love him....but look a little closer to the next line " I have not come on my own; God sent me" On my own in this regard means that he (Jesus) did not come on his own accord or to serve his own purposes but rather the divine purposes of his Father. Assuming God the Son is correct, Jesus being God could clearly state I have come on my own accord and I have sent myself but he does not state that he states that he comes on behalf of he who sent him. In this case it is God sending Jesus and not Jesus sending Jesus. This added to the confusion.

Next came the idea that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Earth were two very different places. God originally intended for man to live forever in an Earthly paradise. This much is clear for he created the garden of Eden filled with all of the fruits that Adam and Eve could eat. They would want for nothing, and feel no pain or hunger or suffering because this is the way that Jehovah God intended it to be. But Adam was tempted by a couple of different things: first he was tempted by the fruit and this is important because Satan told Adam a very great lie. Satan said You (man) do not need God for in tasting of this fruit you will be as God all knowing." And so the lie was told and Adam taking the fruit sold away his paradise for bondage and slavery. But this lie was not only heard by those on Earth it was also heard by those in Heaven as well...the Angels...so what is the significance of this....alll of the Angels and Adam and Eve heard this lie...and if God had stepped in and taken care of it right then and there, the problem may have been solved, but perhaps some of the Angels may have questioned I wonder if this Satan character is onto something What if Man doesn't need God? What if Man can really do things on his own? What if we dont need God? And so Satan was allowed to tell that lie and every branch of Government every kind of Kingdom established on Earth has failed because "man can do things on his own" "Man does not need God" was a lie and in these Earthly governments failing they have proved once and for all leaving no doubt that Satan is a liar...but there is hope which brings me back to my main point also addressing your question.

We need a ruler a divine King to rule over this Earthly paradise a King who is true and just and fair and worthy. A king that would do things the way God wanted Him to. That King is Jesus. King not God. But it was not always that way. Jesus was not given this responsibility when he was first born or when he was a young man...he had to prove himself worthy. He talked to people about his father and made Jehovah God very glad...but it was not until Jesus himself was baptized in Water do we see Jehovah speak out "This is my Son in WHom I am well Pleased." We can see here at this point Jesus has been given his fathers approval as a man and as a future king. God would not need to be baptised He is God. Jesus also knew his time was coming. He also knew of the great sacrifice he would make. That baptizing the world in the name of the father son and holy spirit was done so that God would know you were one of Jesus' people and so that God would know you. And so you see by offering himself as a perfect sacrifice Jesus has purchased us back from slavery and we will one day be restored to an Earthly paradise as God originally intended.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful question. I know the issue of the trinity is a strong one and certainly not one to de-program. I hope I answered all of your questions in a clear manner. Please let me know if you have any more questions or if I can clear things up better.

Beau

Originally posted by beauroberts
divegeester: I too was hung up on this for a long time and it was an obstacle I could not wrap my head around. I had always been told God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. At the same time, I had trouble understanding (as I think we all do) the nature of God. Then I had a problem with addressing the problem of evil in this world and overco ...[text shortened]... r. Please let me know if you have any more questions or if I can clear things up better.

Beau

Hi Beau, I'm enjoying our games by the way. Your contributions here will be a refreshing change if they are personal as this one is.

Let me be clear on a couple of things:

I am not by any means a trinitarian, I never have been and I never will be. I believe God is ONE as is stated in scripture hundreds of times. On the other hand I believe Jesus is God in that when we meet him face to face there will be ONE god. That there are three (or more) manifestations of the same god and that in explaining that Jesus while on earth was called the son etc does not detract from the higher truth that there is one god.

What you and I will disagree on is the nature of Jesus Christ.

You as a JW will claim he is the archangel Michael, you may agree that he is also the "mighty god" from Isaiah chapter 9, but this will be a bit of a cop-out and a way of managing that difficult scripture for the JW organisation. You may have been told that there are many "gods" and this "mighty god" is just one of them etc. If you read Isaiah 9 with an open mind there is no way those writing can interpreted as multiple gods mighty, almighty or whatever.

The outcome of this discourse between us will possible result in what has happened in this forum previously, where a JW will be forced to admit that there are on fact 2 "gods": Jehovah and Jesus, that these two are co-redemptors, so you have 2 saviours and that one is an angel.

You have still not addressed my point other than by inference of your own confusion/hang-up of the trinity, thereby calling me confused. I am many things, not all good, but I assure you I am perfectly clear of this point. Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of the living god.

Can I repeat to you:

Jesus said go baptise in the name (singular) of the father, and of the son (same name), and of the Holy Ghost. Every person in Acts was baptised into the name of Jesus Christ. Therefore the name of Jesus Christ is the name of the father exactly as Isaiah foretold. It is the given name by which we must be saved, in fact scripture actually says this doesn't it. If you want further study I suggest reading up on the names (plural) of god. God uses many names and manifests himself in many ways but he is without any doubt one god.

Every doctrinal error in Christendom revolves around the nature of god and his revealed self as Jesus Christ. That your organisation reduce Jesus to the level of an angel is in my opinion a sinister error that goes onto preventing people from entering in to the fullness of gods grace.

Edit: to be fair though the nature of the godhead is the tip of the iceberg of my issues with the JW organisation, I try to respect the people but the organisation itself in my mind is a pernicious enterprise covered in a robust veneer of good sincere people who misguidedly believe they are the sole holders of god's truth. I hope you stay here in this forum to contend for the truth. No doubt our two resident JWs here will full brief you of the various combatants in this forum.

I wish you fun and games. 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
I would be very interested in seeing this in the Bible.

Rajk999: Let me see if I can answer your thoughtful question. Genesis 2:8-24 offers a Biblical description of the Garden of Eden the place where Adam and Eve where placed. Moreover I submit to you that since this was the place in which Adam and Eve were originally placed, that this was Jehovah's intended living space for them. Some may call the garden an Earthly paradise. Certainly the descriptions sound lovely...almost like a Monet painting or a Little House on the Prairie scene. Every animal lived together in harmony...every fruit was for the eating and prior to the fall, no pain no suffering. Some including myself would call that paradise some including myself would say that this paradise on Earth was God's intended purpose for us.

Our ability to live in this paradise all changed when Satan the great liar told the ultimate lie "Man does not need God" and Adam partook in the fruit contaminating his would be perfect gene pool....ie if Adam and Eve had children prior to them partaking in the fruit their children would still have the potential to be perfect and unblemished but since Cain Able and Seth were all born after the fruit was eaten the sin of the father (Adam) was passed onto the sons...that is why we are often refered to especially in severl literary novels as "Sons of Adam." As you know Adam and Eve were cast out of this Earthly paradise. Hopefully that addresses the Earthly paradise part of your question now to address how Christ purchased it back for all man kind.

I won't bore you with the long geneology of Christ from Adam to Seth and the like...Jesus is from the line of David, Jesus sacrificed his life washing away all sin making us once again spotless in the eyes of God. But not all will go to heaven. We can take a look at Revelation chapter 7. This chapter talks about two distinct groups....those 144,000 which were sealed....these will be leaders and help lead a great teaching period that will come after the resurrection......this is a very special distinct category in which only those who have lived their entire lives and have given of themselves thoughtlessly will be co-rulers in heaven with Jesus. The Earth will go through a healing process with everybody gaining at first a basic knowledge of the truth....then a more comprehensive understanding of the truth and these 144,000 along with Christ shall lead the teaching. Then we see a second group described as the great multitude representing alll those who have been resurrected to the promis of an Earthly Paradise as described in these passages. There is no need for a new Earth, we already have an Earth that was made by our Creator it will take some time to heal the Earth and to teach everyone what they need to learn that time period is also described as a 1000 years....what happens after that 1000 years you ask, Then the Earth willl be blemishless and free from sin and Jesus will present it to his father Jehovah who will rule forever.

I hope I have answered your questions in a clear manner. Sometimes it can be difficult to understand some of these things. One things for sure we have alot of wonderful things to look forward to. If you have any other questions or if you need me to further clarify, I would encourage you to ask.

Beau

Originally posted by galveston75
Could be?......... Yep another truely united worshipper of Jehovah.

2 Corinthians
11 Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to """"think in agreement"""", to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with you.

Galveston75: Thank you for welcoming me to a new home of sorts. While we may rejoice in knowing an Earthly Paradise is assured, we must also weep for all those who are lost in the world. Always we must kindly approach them and seek common ground so that we may help bridge the gap. Remember we are commanded to be powerful lighthouses helping to guide those who are lost or confused into the truth which is the light. We must always no matter how bad the world and the horrible lion seeks to devour us address this with loving kindness.

Beau

Originally posted by galveston75
Seems so simple but yet it isn't for so many.

Galveston75: We must remember brother that not everyone comes to the truth down the same path. Not everyone is has access to this knowledge look at Jonah and the Ninevites...they didn't know what they were doing was wrong and when Jonah told them they changed their ways and had a long period of morning...so we must remember we were all born into this world and this world has been given to the wicked one. We all struggle with whether it be listening to music laden with racial slurs and derogatory language or like myself growing up in a very abusive environment and blaming God for these things...we do not know from where potential brothers and sisters come from or their history...we do know their potential future and it is up to us to meet and greet them always with a smile...because we may be the first last and only access to the truth they have...what a terrific and tremendous responsibility we have...go and make other lighthouses...

Beau

Originally posted by RJHinds
Everything seems simple to the simple minded.

RJHinds: Thank you for reminding us that not everyone has access to the truth and we must always remain aware of that fact. Critiquing and digesting any kind of literature particularly the Bible can be difficult. Your post reminds me that even the simple minded even the illiterate even the blind and sick can learn the truth...how each person gets there depends largely on us.

Beau

Originally posted by JS357
Maybe the twist is that Satan is distracting those who are at bottom faithful from their real enemy, by having them fight with each other. That's more clever. Unless it's a double twist. Or a triple, or...

Oh heck, just kill everybody. God will know His own.

JS357: Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree with you wholeheartedly. One of the tools Satan uses and uses very well is pinning brother against brother and sister against sister. If we are fighting amongst ourselves, then it will be much harder to make sure our feet are shod with the gospel of peace...if we are arguing over other worldly things we forget to bring our double edged sword to battle. Distracting believers and would be believers from true worship must be Satan's ultimate goal. Rmember anything he can do to draw true worship away from God he views as a success.

I do take issue with the comment "just kill everybody" and I'm not nearly as sensitive as I once was, but I can state that I have been exposed to mass killings and genocide, particularly the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. I have seen inocent people laying dead in the streets and so I can say without hesitation that loss of human life (which is sacred) is not to be taken lightly even in jest. Granted there was a time in my life after a rough patch of physical mental and sexual abuse where I was homeless on the streets of Seattle where I may have said "I'll kill those responsible" or "I'd kill for a sandwich."

Thank you again for reminding us that Satan is our enemy and all together wicked and will do everything in his power to tair us apart from each other and from God.

Beau

Originally posted by galveston75
Excellent Christian comment..... I'm trying to find where Jesus would have given that same answer to someone but can't seem to find anything of the sort.

Galveston75: If we do not know a truth exists, chances are we will not be looking for it. Over 9 billion people currently living on Earth all with different stories all with different experiences and potential paths to Jehovah God. A slammed door today may result in dinner and a Bible study tomorrow...we must remain diligent.

Beau

Originally posted by Rajk999
Maybe you can provide the reference for this statement he made then :

..Jesus who made the ultimate purchase to restore our Promised Earthly Paradise

Rajk999: That is an excellent question and hopefully I can answer it for you. But first I must appologize for any confusion I may have caused by my poor word choice I chose the word "purchase" perhaps this was not the best word. Purchase in this usage could also mean ransomed or sacrificed, I am stating that Christ paid the ultimate price or sacrifice paying with his life...that is the purchase/ransome/sacrifice I am refering to.

To further address your question. I have stated that I believe Gods original purpose was for man to live in an Earthly paradise made apparent by Him placing Adam and Eve in the Garden...this original purpose was corrupted by the lie that Satan told leading to Adam selling this paradise away. I believe Jesus' sacrifice is paying the price for all mankind restoring us in the eys of God making this original intended purpose possible again.

I hope I answered your question thoughtfully and completely. Please let me know if you have any more questions or need me to be a little clearer.

Beau

Originally posted by beauroberts
Rajk999: Let me see if I can answer your thoughtful question. Genesis 2:8-24 offers a Biblical description of the Garden of Eden the place where Adam and Eve where placed. Moreover I submit to you that since this was the place in which Adam and Eve were originally placed, that this was Jehovah's intended living space for them. Some may call the garden an ...[text shortened]... any other questions or if you need me to further clarify, I would encourage you to ask.

Beau

No not really... you did not answer the question. You presented the dogma of the JWs. I was looking for a couple of clear verses to support your statement: ... Jesus who made the ultimate purchase to restore our Promised Earthly Paradise...

Explanations like the one you gave, is like a steering wheel; it can be used to move the train of thought in any direction. You presented no link between Christ's death and the Earthly Paradise. According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of mankind. There is a reward for those who are found worthy : to be included of the Kingdom of God. Your explanation is lacking an important link between the Death of Christ and the restoration of Earth.

Bear in mind the the Bible said this earth will be destroyed.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV)


The Bible says that everything here is temporary, its all going to pass away.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Everything you see here will are temporary and will not last.

Your interpretation of Revelation of the 144000 is simply wrong. Revelation says they are Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel. Again you are simply presenting JW dogma without applying your own judgment and common sense.