I am doing as I please. We both are, I think. I'm addressing the assertions you have made. You contend that "a consequence isn't a threat". But the threat of "Hell" is merely a detail from a person's religionist doctrine and an expression of their belief in the supernatural ~ or in this case yours. At most, its "consequence" might be to make some people afraid or modify their behaviour ~ assuming that they happen to believe the same things as you.
Originally posted by lemon lime A consequence isn't a threat. If you are told of the consequences of jumping out of an airplane without a parachute, that's not a threat. And it's not necessarily a warning either, so do as you please.
There is a Hindu extremist [an advocate of genocide against Muslims] who posts here from time. Your suggestion that your notion of "Hell" as a consequence is as real as the consequence of falling out of an aeroplane reminds me of his assertion that his notion that we are all reincarnated in a different animal or human form after we die is as real as the consequence of of putting your hand in a flame and burning yourself. In other words, his assertion that we are reincarnated is just as "true" as his assertion that flames can burn our hands.
Originally posted by FMF I am doing as I please. We both are, I think. I'm addressing the assertions you have made. You contend that "a consequence isn't a threat". But the threat of "Hell" is merely a detail from a person's religionist doctrine and an expression of their belief in the supernatural ~ or in this case yours. At most, its "consequence" might be to make some people afraid or modify their behaviour ~ assuming that they happen to believe the same things as you.
I can empathize with Jonah. Does that count as having empathy? I mean look at him, that guy is a study in disappointment.
He's forced to go somewhere he doesn't want to go, to be with people he has no sympathy for and can't stand to be around, to tell them something he hopes they will ignore, then leaves to go sit on a hill and waits for a fireworks display that never happens.
Originally posted by lemon lime I can empathize with Jonah. Does that count as having empathy? I mean look at him, that guy is a study in disappointment.
He's forced to go somewhere he doesn't want to go, to be with people he has no sympathy for and can't stand to be around, to tell them something he hopes they will ignore, then leaves to go sit on a hill and waits for a fireworks display that never happens.
I feel his pain
You are choosing to miss the point, I suspect. I was drawing attention to what we often get from religionists here, and which you have served up rather neatly: personal-certainty-driven hyperbole "backed" by analogies that do more to exemplify the use of circular logic than they do to substantiate your own assertions.
Originally posted by FMF There is a Hindu extremist [an advocate of genocide against Muslims] who posts here from time. Your suggestion that your notion of "Hell" as a consequence is as real as the consequence of falling out of an aeroplane reminds me of his assertion that his notion that we are all reincarnated in a different animal or human form after we die is as real as the conseque ...[text shortened]... tion that we are reincarnated is just as "true" as his assertion that flames can burn our hands.
You're missing the point. A warning of consequence is not a threat, unless the person warning you happens to be that threat... such as a person telling you to convert to Islam or die.
You can choose to believe in the existence of hell or choose to not believe it. That's entirely up to you, or between you and God, or between you and the lamp post.
Originally posted by lemon lime You're missing the point. A warning of consequence is not a threat, unless the person warning you happens to [b]be that threat... such as a person telling you to convert to Islam or die.
You can choose to believe in the existence of hell or choose to not believe it. That's entirely up to you, or between you and God, or between you and the lamp post.[/b]
On the contrary, I am addressing your point head on. Your thing about parachutes and aeroplanes illustrated it perfectly. "Hell" is only a "consequence" in your imagination and in the imaginations of people with the same religious beliefs as you. Therefore you are - in effect - merely issuing self-regarding and mostly futile psychological threats when you insist that "Hell" is "real" and that it is real because you say so and because you are really, really certain that it is.
Originally posted by FMF On the contrary, I am addressing your point head on. Your thing about parachutes and aeroplanes illustrated it perfectly. "Hell" is only a "consequence" in your imagination and in the imaginations of people with the same religious beliefs as you. Therefore you are - in effect - merely issuing self-regarding and mostly futile psychological threats when you insist ...[text shortened]... l" and that it is real because you say so and because you are really, really certain that it is.
I don't know what you are so worked up over. If you're convinced there is no hell then why do you care what I believe? I don't pose a threat to you, unless you feel yourself falling under my spell... is that what you're worried about?
I'm not a JW, but if a JW shows up at your door and you don't want to talk, then what would you do? Is it a threat or an inconvenience to open and shut your door?
But if an Islamist says convert to Islam or I will kill you, what would you do then? Convert and go with him with your head still attached so you can make the same offer to someone else, or say goodbye to your head?
Originally posted by lemon lime I don't know what you are so worked up over. If you're convinced there is no hell then why do you care what I believe? I don't pose a threat to you, unless you feel yourself falling under my spell... is that what you're worried about?
I am not "worked up" and I am not "worried". I am simply engaging the assertion and analogy that you have presented in this debate and discussion forum. It is you who has chosen to make hypothetical threats in public and not me. I am calling it how I see it. As are you.
Originally posted by lemon lime I'm not a JW, but if a JW shows up at your door and you don't want to talk, then what would you do? Is it a threat or an inconvenience to open and shut your door?
I have always tended towards talking to the JWs who have come to my house ~ there have been a few cups of coffee ~ and in Japan there were a few lunches in Deny's. There was usually no "don't want to talk" factor in play, just as there is no "don't want to talk" factor in play here when I disagree with something you say.
Originally posted by lemon lime But if an Islamist says convert to Islam or I will kill you, what would you do then? Convert and go with him with your head still attached so you can make the same offer to someone else, or say goodbye to your head?
Perhaps this is attempted humour. But it means nothing to me in the context of what we have been talking about. What does this have to do with you imagining there is a "Hell" and you imagining that this "Hell" is "real" for everyone regardless of whether they believe it or not ~ and how you referring to it is somehow no mere "threat"? It appears to me that "an Islamist [saying] convert to Islam or I will kill you" is another poor analogy, if that is indeed what it is intended to be.
Originally posted by FMF I am not "worked up" and I am not "worried". I am simply engaging the assertion and analogy that you have presented in this debate and discussion forum. It is you who has chosen to make hypothetical threats in public and not me. I am calling it how I see it. As are you.
Oh.. good grief
It was not my intention to hypothetically scare you with hypothetical threats... in public. I'll hide behind your washer/dryer, and then scare you with private hypothetical threats when you show up to do your laundry.
Originally posted by FMF Perhaps this is attempted humour. But it means nothing to me in the context of what we have been talking about. What does this have to do with you imagining there is a "Hell" and you imagining that this "Hell" is "real" for everyone regardless of whether they believe it or not ~ and how you referring to it is somehow no mere "threat"? It appears to me that "an I ...[text shortened]... Islam or I will kill you" is another poor analogy, if that is indeed what it is intended to be.
You took that out of context. I was talking about threats because you feel there is a threat to deal with... hypothetical or otherwise I'm not sure, but my point was about what constitutes a threat and what doesn't.
It was not my intention to hypothetically scare you with hypothetical threats... in public. I'll hide behind your washer/dryer, and then scare you with private hypothetical threats when you show up to do your laundry.
You continue to miss the point. I am obviously not "scared" of your threats. As I said earlier, the "consequence" of your threats might, at most, be to make some people afraid or modify their behaviour ~ assuming that they have the same beliefs as you. Which brings us back to the original question I asked, and which remains not directly addressed: What effect on the "need for protection and prisons" do you think the threat of "Hell" has or has had [as a purported "consequence for being evil"]?
Originally posted by lemon lime You took that out of context. I was talking about threats because you feel there is a threat to deal with... hypothetical or otherwise I'm not sure, but my point was about what constitutes a threat and what doesn't.
Better off not responding to FMF. He likes to go off on tangents, arguing for the sake of arguing. Or worse, just getting you all wound up for his own amusement.
Originally posted by lemon lime You took that out of context. I was talking about threats because you feel there is a threat to deal with... hypothetical or otherwise I'm not sure, but my point was about what constitutes a threat and what doesn't.
But my point is, you present no threat that has to be dealt with except perhaps by those who are emotionally or psychologically liable to the kind of "threats" that you brandish for your own personal religious reasons. I am more interested in the psychology of people like you who claim that their imagination creates things that are as real as aeroplanes and people falling to their deaths from aeroplanes and who cite figures like "Jonah" from Hebrew mythology to somehow "back up" their claims. 🙂
Question for some Christians here
20 Aug '14 02:08
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