19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @philokaliaHere's a question - similar to my previous question - but which perhaps warrants its own answer [if you're interested]. It harks back to an exchange on page 4 of this thread. What guidance do you think the Bible gave to the kind of slaves there were in 1700s and 1800s America in terms of the duty to rebel and the morally correct nature of that rebellion?
Imagine being the guy who self righteously says the Bible condoned slavery... And then being triggered when someone agrees with the obvious statement but suggests that the year 2018 is different from the year 800 BC...
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Instead of copy pasting, why not answer Goad’s point...
From gotquestions.org
“Slavery has been a fact of human existence for almost as long as the human race has been in existence. Physical punishment to enforce compliance has been part of slavery for just as long. Corporal punishment has also been used in situations other than slavery. For example, physical chastisements were commonly employed as punishm ...[text shortened]... n far more humane and protective of the slave in Israel than in any of the surrounding nations.”
Is it ok for a master to beat his slaves?
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @philokaliaYou are what you post Jacob; you really should consider this beforehand as complaining about being quoted on a debate forum seems quite churlish.
Of course there is something silly about non-experts discussing the Hebrew words but that's all we can do and it is a much better direction for the Forum than the FMF & Dive quote-by-quote, line-by-line interrogating people on their material and insisting that the question hasn't been answered, lol.
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @suzianneAre you going to come back and defend this comment?
But, let's drop the idea that slavery is equal to tyranny, eh? When the Old Testament was written, slavery was common. That's hardly the same as the tyranny of a people who should have been free and equal to begin with.
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @romans1009What forums? What were your usernames?
I’ve discussed this on other forums.
Can you provide links so we can have look please?
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @fmfYou'd need to be specific in what you want me to try to confront and, of course, bear in mind that I'm no theologian.
What do you think would be a Biblically supported response to the slavery we have in the world in 2018?
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @fmfSince that sort of chattel slavery in most instances didn't allow even a person to become literate and praise God freely, and moreover separated families, resulted in rape and murder...
Here's a question - similar to my previous question - but which perhaps warrants its own answer [if you're interested]. It harks back to an exchange on page 4 of this thread. What guidance do you think the Bible gave to the kind of slaves there were in 1700s and 1800s America in terms of the duty to rebel and the morally correct nature of that rebellion?
Of course, I'd imagine rebellion was normal, natural, and to be encouraged.
Listening to your master and being a dutiful slave is for classical slavery models.
Check out the black nationalist Senegalese writer Cheikh Anta Diop. His work covers exactly this sort of topic and deals with the fact that slaves actually merited the ranks of their owners not just in the classical world but also in the Islamic world.
But... Christianity abolished slavery universally in Europe, and then only after forgetting for a thousand years did it become allowed again, but such episodes as the Valladolid debate also occurred and are noteworthy.
Originally posted by @philokaliaBased on your experience as a Christian and human being, and acknowledging that you are not a theologian, physicist, surgeon, politician or whatever...would you say that slavery is morally acceptable?
You'd need to be specific in what you want me to try to confront and, of course, bear in mind that I'm no theologian.
Originally posted by @philokaliaYou don't need to be a "theologian" to be a grown-up Christian looking at the world and taking a moral stance or expressing a view. As a Christian, would women - in say 2018 -who are victims of forced sex-trafficking be morally justified in killing those who were enslaving them in an effort to escape or to prevent men from raping them?
You'd need to be specific in what you want me to try to confront and, of course, bear in mind that I'm no theologian.
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @philokaliaWas rebellion in such cases a "duty"; was it "obedience to God"? Was killing slave owners [for example] justified, in your Christian view?
Since that sort of chattel slavery in most instances didn't allow even a person to become literate and praise God freely, and moreover separated families, resulted in rape and murder... Of course, I'd imagine rebellion was normal, natural, and to be encouraged.
Originally posted by @philokaliaHow far should Christians be able to go, while still acting in a morally sound and Biblically supported way ~ in your own view, as a Christian yourself ~ in terms of the measures taken to eradicate current day slavery, and how is it affected - if at all - by the role that Christianity played in the abolition of legal slavery in the past?
Christianity abolished slavery universally in Europe, and then only after forgetting for a thousand years did it become allowed again, but such episodes as the Valladolid debate also occurred and are noteworthy.
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterThere's no need for it to exist as an institution in current times because we have fundamentally progressed beyond such an abysmal material reality.
Based on your experience as a Christian and human being, and acknowledging that you are not a theologian, physicist, surgeon, politician or whatever...would you say that slavery is morally acceptable?
For similar reasons, Serfdom was acceptable; the institution of Nobi was acceptable; polygamy was acceptable; arranged marriage to someone you did not know 800 miles away was acceptable.
And, of course, a man who lives in a Papua New Guinean highland tribe and clubs several men to death for kidnapping & eating his son two years ago is acceptable.
You understand that <the current year> does not accurately describe the reality for people 3,000 years ago, right?
Like... Y ou have different options in your life depending on whether it is the year 900 BC or the year 1900 AD.
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @fmfYeah that makes sense, sure, though I would reserve the right to specify on a case by case basis.
You don't need to be a "theologian" to be a grown-up Christian looking at the world and taking a moral stance or expressing a view. As a Christian, would women - in say 2018 -who are victims of forced sex-trafficking be morally justified in killing those who were enslaving them in an effort to escape or to prevent men from raping them?
19 Mar 18
Originally posted by @fmfOh, I'd not go that far.
Was rebellion in such cases a "duty"; was it "obedience to God"? Was killing slave owners [for example] justified, in your Christian view?
It's quite a giant leap to say that you are obligated as a Christian to kill people.
Ummm... You are obligated to try to save people and improve conditions, and the first step to that should all be peaceful and within the legal means, and within the context that is appropriate.
It'd be foolish to just commit ourselves to some position like "OH you can kill people if you think something is slavery and wrong," because the applications of that are ridiculously broad, and there's no theoloical grounds for that.