Originally posted by ZahlanziThat's an argument. But you have no proof we would not have developed intellectually with stronger eyes and bodies. Even with our puny powers, it took a few hundred thousand years to make a real intellectual break, where we figured out language, it is said, everything else followed that.
here is the argument god is kind and smart: because we have weaker eyes, less accurate hearing and smell, weaker muscles caused us to leave the trees and come together in larger communities, to discover fire because we had no fur, to make tools because we are weaker, to constantly discover ways of improving ourselves. crocs and sharks are very nicely built. ...[text shortened]... we had. if it werent for these flaws, we would still be roaming the plains, the perfect hunters.
Originally posted by sonhousewhy would you need to evolve if you rule supreme? if you are not presented with challenges and difficulties, you don't develop problems solving capabilities.
That's an argument. But you have no proof we would not have developed intellectually with stronger eyes and bodies. Even with our puny powers, it took a few hundred thousand years to make a real intellectual break, where we figured out language, it is said, everything else followed that.
Originally posted by ZahlanziWell, call it grousing, but I would certainly like a better body. I think science will give us superbodies in a couple hundred years, who knows, if I wait long enough....🙂
why would you need to evolve if you rule supreme? if you are not presented with challenges and difficulties, you don't develop problems solving capabilities.
There was an article in one of the pop sci rags about what it would take in terms of design changes to make a human whose natural lifespan was twice or 3X ours and they spelled out a lot of stuff like making our knees basically go the other way, a lot smaller body pattern, better immune system, etc., including some of the body problems I brought up here. The person the artist drew, however, ended up looking like a troll....
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Originally posted by Zahlanzi… to discover fire because we had no fur, to make tools because we are weaker, to constantly discover ways of improving ourselves....….
here is the argument god is kind and smart: because we have weaker eyes, less accurate hearing and smell, weaker muscles caused us to leave the trees and come together in larger communities, to discover fire because we had no fur, to make tools because we are weaker, to constantly discover ways of improving ourselves. crocs and sharks are very nicely built. ...[text shortened]... we had. if it werent for these flaws, we would still be roaming the plains, the perfect hunters.
I am curious to know why an all knowing all powerful god would want to give as the discovery of fire and tool-making ability and a tendency to “constantly discover ways of improving ourselves” by the ludicrously indirect means of giving us flaws. Why wouldn’t he just give as all these things without the flaws?
If I programmed a computer to find a solution to a puzzle and if I had the intelligence to know how to program a computer to do this, I wouldn’t deliberately fail to directly program it to attempt to find a solution to the puzzle but, instead, put flaws in the program that, somehow, by some complex and indirect means, makes it “strive” to find a solution to the puzzle. It would be much simpler and more efficient just to directly program it to attempt to find a solution to the puzzle without any kind of “flaw“.
Also, if I wanted the computer to have a mathematical tool to help it find a solution to that puzzle, I would simply give it that mathematical tool. What I wouldn’t do is deliberately fail to directly give it that mathematical tool but, instead, give it “flaws” that by some indirect means and only after thousands or even millions of years later make it discover that mathematical tool because that would be a pretty dumb and inefficient way of doing it, -right? -I mean, why would I not simply just give it the necessary tool?
Originally posted by Andrew Hamiltonwhat is more meaningful? to win the lottery , or to make the same amount of money starting with a great idea and 10$ in your pocket?
[b]… to discover fire because we had no fur, to make tools because we are weaker, to constantly discover ways of improving ourselves....….
I am curious to know why an all knowing all powerful god would want to give as the discovery of fire and tool-making ability and a tendency to “constantly discover ways of improving ourselves” by the ludic ...[text shortened]... icient way of doing it, -right? -I mean, why would I not simply just give it the necessary tool?[/b]
what would be greater, to discover how the universe works, the secret to a healthy, disease free life, perhaps immortality or an ET comming on earth and giving us all the answers, even answers to questions we didn't ask.
if god is omniscient and almost omnipotent, what would be the point of depriving that creature of the joy of discovery, the satisfaction of accomplishment in the face of great difficulties?
that is if god had direct implications in our creation. i find it much more likely he just jump started the universe and then simply observed it. the bible toys with the idea of a god that created the world in 7 days and then took a huge break until he became bored again and started talking to jews.
Originally posted by Andrew Hamiltonyour computer example only points the fact that we NEED computers to behave in a programmed fashion. we might find the idea of allowing the computer feelings or room for discovery less appealing when trying to land a plane or regulating a nuclear power plant.
[b]… to discover fire because we had no fur, to make tools because we are weaker, to constantly discover ways of improving ourselves....….
I am curious to know why an all knowing all powerful god would want to give as the discovery of fire and tool-making ability and a tendency to “constantly discover ways of improving ourselves” by the ludic ...[text shortened]... icient way of doing it, -right? -I mean, why would I not simply just give it the necessary tool?[/b]
what need does god have for robots. as far as we know, god exists for all eternity and he is omniscient. can you imagine how freakin lonely and boring that must be? so he designs universe(s) to populate the boring desert of eternity. as such, to further make an analogy to humanity, would you like watching a movie with no action, where the characters are perfect and don't need to discover anything, a movie where you know beforehand what happens?
one more example: animal planet's wild life documentaries. watching a baby cheetah from its birth to adulthood to death.(i am a softie for cats). Don't you just feel sorry for the skinny (crippled) adult cheetah looking for food and not finding any while the researchers film it from their jeep? wouldn't you like that they just give it a burger already and screw the "non-interfering policy"?
to me god is the researcher from the big jeep in the sky. and when i fall and hurt my leg i will not cry for help, i will just say "I got it covered, just don't laugh"
Originally posted by sonhouseyes, but if you already lived like 1000 years, would you want 1000 more?
Well, call it grousing, but I would certainly like a better body. I think science will give us superbodies in a couple hundred years, who knows, if I wait long enough....🙂
There was an article in one of the pop sci rags about what it would take in terms of design changes to make a human whose natural lifespan was twice or 3X ours and they spelled out a lo ...[text shortened]... oblems I brought up here. The person the artist drew, however, ended up looking like a troll....
i like to find diferent interpretations in everything even unserious events. so let's take the lord of the rings series. (bare with me, don't call me a freak just yet). the elves are supposed to have huge lifespans. they are tall and beautiful, slender and healthy. they don't age and as far as i can tell they don't even die, they just move on across the sea. they sit around all day telling stories and singing like a bunch of hippie panzies. humans however, with their short life burn with ambition, with the desire to know more and more, so they invent, they struggle, they war, they want to leave something behind when they die, a legacy, in contrast with the elves who supposedly have great knowledge.
My point is that the elves are boring. they are stagnant. in fact one of the key elements of the books is how they simply "leave" the world of men when their time had come. They simply get bored with not living so they leave to "not live" somewhere else. Which life is more fulfilling and satisfying?
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Originally posted by Zahlanzi…what is more meaningful? to win the lottery , or to make the same amount of money starting with a great idea and 10$ in your pocket? ..…
what is more meaningful? to win the lottery , or to make the same amount of money starting with a great idea and 10$ in your pocket?
what would be greater, to discover how the universe works, the secret to a healthy, disease free life, perhaps immortality or an ET comming on earth and giving us all the answers, even answers to questions we didn't ask.
...[text shortened]... d in 7 days and then took a huge break until he became bored again and started talking to jews.
The latter. So, if I was all powerful and kind, why wouldn’t I not want to so set things up that everybody DOES make that huge amount of money by “starting with a great idea and 10$ in the pocket” -this is assuming, of course, that I think that being rich is necessarily a good thing (which I don’t)
…if god is omniscient and almost omnipotent, what would be the point of depriving that creature of the joy of discovery..…
If it is the “joy of discovery” of a cure for a terrible and deadly disease, the point of “depriving that creature of the joy of discovery” would be to prevent thousands of years of horror of victims of that terrible disease. Would you say the “joy of discovery” the polio vaccine outweighs all the past horror of victims of that terrible disease gong back thousands of years? -this is obviously a subjective judgement but somehow I don’t think so. The “joy of discovery” isn’t THAT good!
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonLets have the 'joy of discovery' be a megawatt fusion generator the size of a D cell with power taps taken off by ultraconductors(superconductors that work at 3000 degrees C and lower) and a field accelerator that lets you power a car or a truck without wheels and spacecraft using it going straight up, powered by the fusion generator I mentioned? How bout the joy of discovery with a machine that sucks out CO2 and methane out of the air and sequesters it as solid carbon, able to extract trillions of tons of the stuff and get our CO2 levels back to what it was in 1750. How bout getting people to have colonies around other stars so if our sun blows up, the human race goes on.
[b]…what is more meaningful? to win the lottery , or to make the same amount of money starting with a great idea and 10$ in your pocket? ..…
The latter. So, if I was all powerful and kind, why wouldn’t I not want to so set things up that everybody DOES make that huge amount of money by “starting with a great idea and 10$ in the pocket” -this ...[text shortened]... sly a subjective judgement but somehow I don’t think so. The “joy of discovery” isn’t THAT good![/b]
How bout that and a lot of other neat things?
Originally posted by ZahlanziYes I think I would. I would certainly want the option to continue.
yes, but if you already lived like 1000 years, would you want 1000 more?
My point is that the elves are boring. they are stagnant. in fact one of the key elements of the books is how they simply "leave" the world of men when their time had come. They simply get bored with not living so they leave to "not live" somewhere else. Which life is more fulfilling and satisfying?
I don't think there is any real indication in the books that the elves lead any less satisfying lives. Age and Wisdom does often lead you to get less excited about certain goings on in the world, but that does not necessarily mean we are living less as we get older.
Do you think that someone who just lost $100,000 in the stock market is better off (happier for the excitement) than someone who never had any money in it to begin with?
Originally posted by Andrew Hamiltonare you asking an all-powerful being, all knowing and eternal to spare you several years of suffering when he is offering eternal existence in the afterlife and he gave you life in the first place? doesn't it seem like you are asking the guy who gave you 1 million $ for 4 dollars more?
[b]…what is more meaningful? to win the lottery , or to make the same amount of money starting with a great idea and 10$ in your pocket? ..…
The latter. So, if I was all powerful and kind, why wouldn’t I not want to so set things up that everybody DOES make that huge amount of money by “starting with a great idea and 10$ in the pocket” -this ...[text shortened]... sly a subjective judgement but somehow I don’t think so. The “joy of discovery” isn’t THAT good![/b]
Originally posted by twhiteheadbut you are given the option to continue. in the afterlife.
Yes I think I would. I would certainly want the option to continue.
[b]My point is that the elves are boring. they are stagnant. in fact one of the key elements of the books is how they simply "leave" the world of men when their time had come. They simply get bored with not living so they leave to "not live" somewhere else. Which life is more fulfillin ...[text shortened]... off (happier for the excitement) than someone who never had any money in it to begin with?
to your question i ask another. would you say that someone who never had anything happen to him is less or more happy than someone that had good and bad things? or even only bad things but maintained hope that something good will have to eventually happen to him?
for that matter, who is happier, a convict who is never allowed out of his cell or the convict that has to work diggin ditches?
Originally posted by Zahlanzi…are you asking an all-powerful being, all knowing and eternal to spare you several years of suffering when he is offering eternal existence in the afterlife and he gave you life in the first place?..…
are you asking an all-powerful being, all knowing and eternal to spare you several years of suffering when he is offering eternal existence in the afterlife and he gave you life in the first place? doesn't it seem like you are asking the guy who gave you 1 million $ for 4 dollars more?
No. And “he” didn’t “gave me life in the first place” -I was developed by natural biological processes.
…doesn't it seem like you are asking the guy who gave you 1 million $ for 4 dollars more?..…
I don’t think that analogy is the best one here:
I would ask a guy who wants to give me million $ to NOT to flog me first nor to pull up my toenails first.
Originally posted by ZahlanziThis is the standard interpretation. Obviously, it does not mean that God made man perfectly fit. In other biblical passages, we see that God intentionally gives people deforminities and ilnesses (i.e. Job). Apparently, He makes labor painful to women.
in his image simply means god has given man the power to reason, to distinguish right from wrong, to better himself.
Sonhouse also misunderstands the argument from design. The watch does not need to be perfect in order to presuppose a watchmaker. It simply needs to have the features of design. I do not believe the argument from design very plausible but Sonhouse does need to revise his thoughts a little and stop the ranting.
Originally posted by ZahlanziWhy doesn't cough it up already? If your parents told you you would inherit a massive fortune from them when you turned 65, would you not resent them for not making it a bit sooner?
doesn't it seem like you are asking the guy who gave you 1 million $ for 4 dollars more?
I don't think your reasoning is at all valid. It doesn't matter how much God is planing to do for us, it doesn't change what he is not doing for us now.