Religious people are functionally insane.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why doesn't cough it up already? If your parents told you you would inherit a massive fortune from them when you turned 65, would you not resent them for not making it a bit sooner?

I don't think your reasoning is at all valid. It doesn't matter how much God is planing to do for us, it doesn't change what he is not doing for us now.

then by your reasoning, a multi-millionaire who is helping 1 person a day with 100 bucks should be helping 2 persons with 100 bucks. or 10. or should give more than100 dollars. by your reasoning, bill gates is a jerk for all the charity he is making because he should give up ALL his money

why is god indebted to you or me in any way? just because he gave me something and can give me all the rest that doesn't make him a bastard or doesn't oblige him to give all the rest.

and for he record, if i ever make a huge fortune, my kidz will not inherit more than it would be required them to lead a carefree life. if i had 100 million dollars, they will not inherit more than 500000$

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why would you need to evolve if you rule supreme? if you are not presented with challenges and difficulties, you don't develop problems solving capabilities.

I see you ignore my charges of christianity and islam being civilization destroyers. You can't refute that charge so you bury it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I see you ignore my charges of christianity and islam being civilization destroyers. You can't refute that charge so you bury it.

On the contrary; Western law derives a great deal of its content from religion. Our moral justification finds itself in everyday law. Justice by court or tribunal has its origins in religion. Whether you agree with the nature of laws, marriages, rights, what is right and wrong, or not; that has no bearing on the fact that religion has a tremendous influence on how civilized societies have come about and operate. Art and architecture are heavily influenced by religion. Religions and civilization have had a very bumpy and uneven road in getting where we are today, and the road ahead is bumpy. Further, you may not like where the road is going and dislike these or any other religions completely, and that's fine. But civilization destroyers? What you state is colossally illogical - if religion destroyed civilization(s) then the heavy hand of religion in centuries past would long ago have left us with nothing.

Charge refuted.

Well, I hardly post on this forum, but when I get the urge to check the spirituality section, I always find myself unable to refrain from posting a response. Andrew, twhitehead(sp?), and sonhouse, this whole argument is almost of no use. I had a discussion with two christians yesterday about abortion, gay marriage, and then a couple of statements about the age of the earth. Near the beginning of the debate, and probably the reason that it kept going, the girl said, "well, that's just it...no matter what you say, i'm not going to be convinced and neither will you."

Read that again. What she is saying is, essentially, that no matter the logic or rationality of a person's argument, no matter what evidence I brought before her, she would NOT change her mind. She assumed the same of me, but I responded by telling her that I once thought somewhat like her and that after educating myself and getting in many difficult little arguments/debates, I changed my mind more and more to the most logical position - there is no god (especially a christian bipolar god). Zhalini or whatever will not change his mind. I never EVER said, even when I believed, that I would not change my mind. Zhalini may not have said that exactly, but he won't change his mind with what we tell him. This is evident from the idea that early in the discussion he asks that we disprove god. It is not up to us to disprove him. it is up to them to prove he exists. I don't care, really, one way or the other. I am an atheist, but I too once danced around the types of questions brought up here with simple circular arguments to protect my faith in christianity.

it's tiring. zhalani...give it up. haha, that probably just upsets you. but seriously. It's an honest question to wonder why the all powerful god allows kids to be molested and women to be raped and children to be indoctrinated into white supremacy trains of thought and so on and so forth. Why does the devil not just give up if everyone "knows" god is going to win? what is the difference between angels and devils since the devil surely had free will in his denial of god's power or status as "top dog"? those are just not even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to questioning the rationality of the christian (or any other god with its own little book) faith.

So, I mean not to offend you z-man. But answer my next question after a good 10 minute pause or so, really really think about it and be honest:

Is there any amount of evidence about the age of the earth, about evolution, about the implausibility of a christian god that would change your mind?

sorry...one more question:

when confronted with a rational, logical explanation that contradicts biblical statements, would you choose ... CHOOSE ... to take the logical, rational, observation/evidence based conclusion or decide to go with what the bible says? if you choose the latter, you must admit you are choosing to be illogical, irrational, and base your conclusion on nothing more than a book and absolutely no real evidence.

to the pumpkin king:

your argument is a good one. obviously religion would not have stayed around if it was nothing but detrimental to our societies.

However, I would like to say that, at least in my opinion based off of the books that I've read, religion seems to have played a part in civilization development but doesn't necessarily seem worth keeping around. I'm not saying we could simply tell everyone god doesn't exist, and they'll be fine with it....obviously not. But I think that over time, god becomes less and less necessary for explaining every day things. It might have been to our benefit to settle our curiosity about phenomena with attributing it to a god, but I see it becoming more of a "god of the gaps" idea (not my term, of course.) Over time, more is explained by science. and god's hand is taken further and further into the background. eventually, we won't need god to explain even the unexplained...we'll simply know there's a better, real, logical explanation.

Originally posted by kast
to the pumpkin king:

your argument is a good one. obviously religion would not have stayed around if it was nothing but detrimental to our societies.

However, I would like to say that, at least in my opinion based off of the books that I've read, religion seems to have played a part in civilization development but doesn't necessarily seem worth keeping a ...[text shortened]... even the unexplained...we'll simply know there's a better, real, logical explanation.

Agreed - my only point was that Christianity and Islam are not civilization destroyers. 😉

Originally posted by Badwater
Agreed - my only point was that Christianity and Islam are not civilization destroyers. 😉

Tell that to the Mayans in Cancun, tell that to the eskimo in Alaska, tell that to the american indian in the US, tell that to the Aboriginie in Australia.
Sorry, you are putting your head in the sand when you ignore the devestation religion causes. Tell it to the tribes in Africa right now where hundreds of thousands are killed and the rest forced into islam under the threat of death.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Tell that to the Mayans in Cancun, tell that to the eskimo in Alaska, tell that to the american indian in the US, tell that to the Aboriginie in Australia.
Sorry, you are putting your head in the sand when you ignore the devestation religion causes. Tell it to the tribes in Africa right now where hundreds of thousands are killed and the rest forced into islam under the threat of death.

You are ignorant if you think Christianity is responsibe for the destruction of Aboriginal culture. Missionaries may have destroyed other indigenous cultures, but they did not ruin Aborigines. Racism and cultural supremacy are largely to blame. At the moment, it is Christian missionaries working to minimise alcohol dependency, fuel-sniffing and other destruction behaviours, which are rescuing Aborigines from extinction.

Originally posted by kast
Well, I hardly post on this forum, but when I get the urge to check the spirituality section, I always find myself unable to refrain from posting a response. Andrew, twhitehead(sp?), and sonhouse, this whole argument is almost of no use. I had a discussion with two christians yesterday about abortion, gay marriage, and then a couple of statements about the ag ...[text shortened]... base your conclusion on nothing more than a book and absolutely no real evidence.

well, it is obvious you don't post on this forum. you would have known me better than to ask those stupid questions, because i would have corrected you time and time again when you made assumptions based on the skimming my posts for 2 secs.

when faced with a logical explanation that contradicts the bible or any religious text, i would always choose the logical statement. basically considering most of the bible was written by men with no divine contribution.

Is there any amount of evidence about the age of the earth, about evolution, about the implausibility of a christian god that would change your mind?
well, considering that god is impossible to prove or disprove, i would like to hear from you any proof you might have that god is dead or never existed. but once you get to the point of trying to disprove a god, a being whom i claim exists outside time and space, perhaps you would tell me what colour is the pre-BigBang singularity. i mean since you can look there for god you might also find other stuff.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Tell that to the Mayans in Cancun, tell that to the eskimo in Alaska, tell that to the american indian in the US, tell that to the Aboriginie in Australia.
Sorry, you are putting your head in the sand when you ignore the devestation religion causes. Tell it to the tribes in Africa right now where hundreds of thousands are killed and the rest forced into islam under the threat of death.

the mayans, incans, native americans were not destroyed by religion. they were destroyed by the greed of more advanced societies.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
the mayans, incans, native americans were not destroyed by religion. they were destroyed by the greed of more advanced societies.

... but lesser advanced society spiritually.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I see you ignore my charges of christianity and islam being civilization destroyers. You can't refute that charge so you bury it.

i don't have to refute it. it is just as wrong as the claim that the jews deserved the holocaust. just because the greedy bastards who destroyed the incan civilisation happened to be christians it doesn't mean that christianity is to blame. in fact christianity makes a point of telling people that riches are impending your road to salvation and killing is WAY notty. the fact the spanish conquistadors wrote amendments to that law and decided it is okay to kill non-christians, heretic or whomever they disliked as long as they label them satan worshipers or witches has nothing to do with cristianity being a civilisation destroyer.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
... but lesser advanced society spiritually.

by advanced society in this case i mean people with boomsticks and choppas and shiny armour and the means to produce a lot of them.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i don't have to refute it. it is just as wrong as the claim that the jews deserved the holocaust. just because the greedy bastards who destroyed the incan civilisation happened to be christians it doesn't mean that christianity is to blame. in fact christianity makes a point of telling people that riches are impending your road to salvation and killing is W ...[text shortened]... satan worshipers or witches has nothing to do with cristianity being a civilisation destroyer.

So you rationalize every case of christians screwing over other cultures thinking they have the right and duty to do so, like the Aborigine in Australia, like many tribes around the world get screwed over by christianity, like what happened to Hawaiians, converted to christianity and now a depressed alcoholic lot? Why can't you admit christians should just leave these indiginous people alone to live out their chosen destiny rather than destroy them?

Originally posted by sonhouse
So you rationalize every case of christians screwing over other cultures thinking they have the right and duty to do so, like the Aborigine in Australia, like many tribes around the world get screwed over by christianity, like what happened to Hawaiians, converted to christianity and now a depressed alcoholic lot? Why can't you admit christians should just leave these indiginous people alone to live out their chosen destiny rather than destroy them?

you just don't get it do you?

when a religion tells you its wrong to kill and its wrong to go after gold without caring who you screw, how can that religion be responsible for the conquistadors destroying the incans? sure, the conquistadors claimed it is their right because god commands the heathens to be converted. but:
1. jesus never said anything about killing those that didn't convert or convert by force and
2. if i say that you(sonhouse) ask me (zahlanzi) to sacrifice 1000 virgins to you as a god and you don't say anything to make me change my mind, does that make you responsible for my actions?

Why can't you admit christians should just leave these indiginous people alone to live out their chosen destiny rather than destroy them?
are you so naive that the expansion of the american colonies into native american lands had anything to with religion? that the colonists said "i would rather live on the east coast and not bother the injuns, but god demands i convert them"? do you think that if the injuns were christians, all the americans would just sit with their guns on the east coast and allow their brothers in faith to just retain ownership over the rest of the land?