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08 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
Sonship I'm not convinced you are practicing what you preach here.
You say:
"We believers in Christ should affirm all that the Bible affirms about Christ."
Can you please indicate where in the bible the following terms which you use are stated?
- the phrase "triune god"
The phrase "triune God" doesn't appear in Scripture. And I know that you do not like to use the phrase or the phrase "Trinity".
I don't say that you are in a CULT because you do not like to use a word which does not appear in Scripture. Herein lies the difference.
You don't want to speak of "Trinity"? I do not insist that you do before I call you a Christian brother. Don't object if some of us do use the phrases "Triune God" or "Trinity" because the fact is there in the Bible though the phrase is not.
- the term "Trinity" especially with a capital T. Why would you do that when it's not even in the bible?
You do not have to use the word "Trinity" or "trinity" if it offends your conscience. Since it refers to God Himself, and I capitalize God, I capitalize Trinity often. I capitalize "Triune God" often. But there are times when you could catch me writing either in small letters.
I do not call you a "CULT" because you prefer not to use the words "Trinity" or "trinity".
Herein is the difference.
There are some useful theological words which do not appear in the Bible. I think you would agree with that.
"Substitution" is probably not a word found in the Bible. But the concept of "Substitution" when Christ dies on our behalf is quite useful.
And like "Substitution" or "Rapture" these words can be quite useful to understanding the truth of the Bible. And the same goes with the word "Triune God" or "three-one God" or "Trinity".
I have never had the slightest sense of offense in my conscience for saying or writing "Triune God". All the accusation about my usage of "Trinity" does not have the sense of the grieving of the Holy Spirit.
If I stub my toe, for example, and use the name of "Jesus Christ!" as a two part curse word, then I would definitely feel the GRIEVING of the Holy Spirit. I do not have any such sense when I use the phrase "Trinity".
- the term "Lord Spirit" - the bible states that Jesus is Lord, never once does it state "the Spirit is Lord" or there is a Lord Spirit.
The phrase "Lord Spirit" I hardly ever use. I don't think Witness Lee used the phrase "Lord Spirit" very often. Here would be an example of him using it.
For many years I have been trying to understand the phrase “from glory to glory” used in 3:18. I consulted a number of books, but I failed to find a satisfactory explanation. We should not take this matter for granted or assume that we understand it. What is the glory here, and what is the meaning of “from glory to glory”? From glory to glory means from the Lord Spirit to the Lord Spirit. The Lord Spirit is upon the Lord Spirit. This means that the Lord Spirit as the rich supply is continually added into our being.[from the Life Study of Second Corinthians]
The Amplified Bible has this rendering of 2 Cor. 3:18
2 Corinthians 3:18 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.
[My bolding only]
As you can see they translated "the Lord Spirit" and supplied clarifying phraseology "[Who is]"
J.N. Darby's translation from Greek is similar:
Darby Bible Translation
But *we* all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by [the] Lord [the] Spirit.
"even as by Lord Spirit" seems to be the litural English to Greek minus the supplied words.
Other renderings are:
American Standard Version
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
Weymouth New Testament
And all of us, with unveiled faces, reflecting like bright mirrors the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same likeness, from one degree of radiant holiness to another, even as derived from the Lord the Spirit.
New American Standard Bible
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
World English Bible
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit.
I think most often in English we see "the Spirit of the Lord".
And I do not as of yet see any serious ground of objection to "the Lord Spirit" to be concerned with.
- the term "Eternal Father" - again you use a capital E. I can find very few and somewhat non-mainstream translations which use "Eternal" at this juncture. I presume you also like the term "Eternal Son" although you do not mention it here. This term is also nowhere in the Bible.
Small s "eternal Father" or even "eternal father" would not be a serious problem in Isaiah 9:6
I think you are knit picking a little bit when the major interpretation is still the same. This "eternal father" or "everlasting father" or "father of eternity" is the "father" indicated elsewhere in Isaiah who is God.
- the term "three distinct persons" or "three persons" or indeed the number or word "three" used as an adjective when describing the godhead. However, many many times throughout the bible, god is described as "one", in fact over and over and over again, he describes himself through the prophets this way. Note I do not capitalise it.
I agree. However "Us" and "We" are used.
And I see then no serious objection to understanding that at least Father and Son are indicated. And most likely "Holy Spirit" also since these three titles are seen together at times.
IE. " ... baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
That's three titles yet one name.
Finally the term "principle of antichrist" does not appear anywhere in any bible translation. So I feel that to accuse someone of being influenced by such a thing is a little rich considering the argument you are leveraging is that we are to adhere to scripture.
The same with "Trinity" and "Rapture" and "Substitution" applies here, I think. To understand that there is a principle at work in not believing ALL that Scripture has taught about what and who Christ is is a principle we should see.
I don't mind if you have a way of indicating that danger by only resorting to terms found in the Bible. And I see no harm in using "principle of antichrist" any more than using "substitutionary death" of Christ or "rapture" of the church.
It seems to me you may need a dose of your own medicine.
I don't think I will ever graduate from taking my own medicine.
At the same time, I am closely examining RJHinds because he is the one who has leveled the charge of participation in a cult and following a false teacher.
So I apply some medicine to him.
While limitation to biblical words can be good and safe, experience of God with the words of anointed teachers is also good. Witness Lee's teachings ALWAYS sought to lead the listeners into experience of God.
That is why he called his exposition of the entire 66 books of the Bible the "Life Study" of the Bible. The aim was to bring the saints into life and more abundantly.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" that we may have the Triune God as our life, to live by Him.
08 Jul 14
Originally posted by divegeesterThey don't want anything disturbing their fantasy world of demons and gods.
A "thumbs down" but no response from each of the two protagonists I replied to in this thread. Interesting behaviour which I expected from Pugenik (who never replies to my questions to him), but not from sonship.
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08 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipGood grief I'm not replying to all that, can't you ever be concise?Sonship I'm not convinced you are practicing what you preach here.
You say:
"We believers in Christ should affirm all that the Bible affirms about Christ."
Can you please indicate where in the bible the following terms which you use are stated?
- the phrase "triune god"
The phrase "triune God" doesn't appear in Scripture. And ...[text shortened]... am became a life giving Spirit" that we may have the Triune God as our life, to live by Him.[/b]
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Originally posted by sonshipLet's be clear about a few things sonship:Sonship I'm not convinced you are practicing what you preach here.
You say:
"We believers in Christ should affirm all that the Bible affirms about Christ."
Can you please indicate where in the bible the following terms which you use are stated?
- the phrase "triune god"
The phrase "triune God" doesn't appear in Scripture. And ...[text shortened]... am became a life giving Spirit" that we may have the Triune God as our life, to live by Him.[/b]
I'm not calling you a cult member - why do you feel the need to introduce that? Passive aggressive much?
I don't care what words you use, I'm not offended and my conscience is not troubled one bit. I'm not the weaker brother, which is what you're implying isn't it - passive aggressive much?
"Herein lies the difference" what's all that repeating about? You're better than me because you won't say I'm in a cult? Passive aggressive much?
My whole post was calling you on (for want of a better word) your hypocrisy in calling Hinds influenced by a principle of antichrist because he wasn't adhering to what was said in the bible. But there you are using terms, phrases and words which are not in the bible.
And seriously, do your really honestly think that using the word "substitute"to talk about Christ on the cross for us is the same as using the capitalised "Trinity" to describe the godhead when the only numerical representation of the godhead in scripture, as you well know, is hear oh Israel The Lord your God is "ONE".
As you say....my BOLD & CAPS
So please leave the lecture for the atheists my friend, I've done the Christian circuits too many times to fail to recognise the techniques.
Blessings.
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Originally posted by divegeester
"Herein lies the difference" what's all that repeating about? You're better than me because you won't say I'm in a cult? Passive aggressive much?
If it makes you feel better I'll just state "aggressively" that you are full of baloney. To assume that when Christians speak they can only use words that can be located in the a Bible Lexicon is more like some kind of superstitious talk.
When you share the gospel with someone, do you keep a Lexicon open to make sure your every phrase and word is something literally located in Scripture ?
This reminds me of the stricter Navigator types who insisted that no Bible Commentaries should ever be read. Legalistic baloney.
My whole post was calling you on (for want of a better word)
"for want of a better word"? .... "Passive aggressive" there ?
your hypocrisy in calling Hinds influenced by a principle of antichrist because he wasn't adhering to what was said in the bible. But there you are using terms, phrases and words which are not in the bible.
The principle of antichrist, I said, was denying some aspect of the whole teaching of who and what Christ is.
Some Christians do not like to hear that the Son given is the eternal Father. Some deny that Christ is a creature. That is He is the Creator as well as a creature.
Some Christians do not want to believe "the Lord is the Spirit" .
These truths are in the Bible portraying a full picture of all the Christ is. The principle of antichrist is to not want to believe one or more of these descriptions of Christ.
One may use biblical words or not use them and still fall into this unfortunate error.
And seriously, do your really honestly think that using the word "substitute" to talk about Christ on the cross for us is the same as using the capitalised "Trinity"
Sure. "Justification" is a word commonly used by theologians. It happens to be found in the Bible. "Substitution" is also word used which can be quite helpful. Yet I don't think you can locate it in the Bible.
"Usage of "Trinity" is similar to usage of "Substitution" I think.
I realize "Trinity" capitalized means to many God Himself.
to describe the godhead when the only numerical representation of the godhead in scripture, as you well know, is hear oh Israel The Lord your God is "ONE".
Does "US" in Genesis 1:26 indicate a plurality of some kind or not?
Does "We" in John 14:23 indicate a plurality of some kind or not?
So get off our backs when some of say there is a "Trinity".
By the way - "the SEVEN Spirit of God" (Rev. 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6) is also the pure utterance of the divinely inspired oracles of God. Those passages referring to God use the word "SEVEN" rather than "ONE" .
So please leave the lecture for the atheists my friend, I've done the Christian circuits too many times to fail to recognise the techniques.
I forgot, divegeester is above all lecturing.
But you sure can dish them out to others.
Originally posted by divegeesterYou divegeester have never tried to receive God in His fullness. If you had you would not ask me these questions.
Why do you use a word "Trinity" to describe god, a word which does not appear in the bible?
Importantly, why do you capitalise it?
I experience the Trinity, everyday. I know the voice of Jesus and the Father, and I recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit. They are with me and I am in them.
How should I try to explain what I know is real, in a way that you would accept?
I capitalize the word Trinity and the Three that are One because I respect and have reverence for them.
09 Jul 14
Originally posted by divegeesterthe only time I have to read and reply is usually around midnight, when I'm physically exhausted from my work. The rarity that I'm here before then, like tonight is maybe once a month.
A "thumbs down" but no response from each of the two protagonists I replied to in this thread. Interesting behaviour which I expected from Pugenik (who never replies to my questions to him), but not from sonship.
Then it is remembering what thread I typed on last.
Well I replied tonight divegeester, maybe you should buy a lotto ticket.