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Originally posted by sonshipAs I said, Paul is using figures of speech to motivate and wish that the others gain more understanding in their minds of the mind of Christ, so they become to believe and act like Christ themselves.
I do not believe that if you operate on my stomach you will locate a man with a robe and sandals who will identify Himself as Jesus.
I thought that went without saying. But you never know. So let's come faithfully back to the Word of God and see where Jesus Christ is within me.
1.) He is with my immaterial innermost being, called my [b]spirit.
...[text shortened]... vious.
I'd rather cooperate with what God has shown him for the church in these last days.[/b]
Paul believes that the Holy Spirit has revealed things about Christ to him that he wishes to pass on to others. So he is looking forward to the time when they all, including himself, will think like Christ as if God was actually living within them.
They are certainly not like that now, because they would not need any instruction from Paul.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
As I said, Paul is using figures of speech to motivate and wish that the others gain more understanding in their minds of the mind of Christ, so they become to believe and act like Christ themselves.
Our "acting like Christ" is like a poodle walking on its hind legs. Or it is kind of like a chimp dressed in a man's suit.
Rather than imitate Christ, acting like Him out of our own self effort, we need to set our mind upon Christ and allow Him to love out from us.
"It is not longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me." (Gal. 2:20)
Any humanist, any agnostic, any Unitarian or atheist for that matter can say we should drum up our effort and imitate Jesus.
Many agnostics who get divinity degrees from very modernist place like Union Theological Seminary would agree that the New Testament is filled with nice figures of speeches and we should go out and be good people like Jesus.
They don't need to know anything about Christ as the life giving Spirit because they depend on the good side of the fallen nature to be pious.
The New Testament however is about "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19)
Paul labored for Christ Himself to be formed in the Galatian believers.
"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you." (Gal. 4:18)
He sought for Jesus Christ who has been imparted into them through the Spirit, to be developed, grow, expand, permeate and be formed in them.
He further looked forward to the judgment seat of Christ when his labors would be rewarded, hopefully, by Christ. He sought to present every man "fullgrown" in Christ.
" ... Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ;
For which also I labor, struggling according to His operation which operates in me in power." (Col. 1:27c-29)
Paul believes that the Holy Spirit has revealed things about Christ to him that he wishes to pass on to others. So he is looking forward to the time when they all, including himself, will think like Christ as if God was actually living within them.
They are certainly not like that now, because they would not need any instruction from Paul.
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Originally posted by sonship
Paul believes that the Holy Spirit has revealed things about Christ to him that he wishes to pass on to others. So he is looking forward to the time when they all, including himself, will think like Christ as if God was actually living within them.
They are certainly not like that now, because they would not need any instruction from Paul.
In the above post these two paragraphs should have been attributed to RJHinds. I forgot to put them in the quoting box for him.
Originally posted by sonshipFigures of speech.As I said, Paul is using figures of speech to motivate and wish that the others gain more understanding in their minds of the mind of Christ, so they become to believe and act like Christ themselves.
Our "acting like Christ" is like a poodle walking on its hind legs. Or it is kind of like a chimp dressed in a man's suit.
Rather than ...[text shortened]...
They are certainly not like that now, because they would not need any instruction from Paul.
Originally posted by SuzianneI am not denigrating any Christians. I am just correcting their inaccurate understandings. Do you wish to remain ignorant or do you wish to be corrected so you gain true understanding?
You denigrate some Christians for "picking and choosing" which verses to believe at face value and which to call "allegorical", yet you do the exact same thing.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
Figures of speech.
Figures of speech.
To speak of "figures of speech" is to imply one thing is less real but something else is more real.
For example "For me to live my own life, to live ME" is really real.
But "For me to live is Christ" is less real and is a figure of speech.
The problem here is which is really more real?
Is for me to live sonship much more real than the "figure of speech" to live Christ?
Or is living Christ actually more real of which me living "me" is a kind of shadow, symbol, maybe an allegory?
In my self I will die, turn to dust, be no more of God does not intervene.
But Christ is eternal, indestructible, without ending, and quality wise way superior to any life that I manifest without Him.
There is a case to be made that to live just the fallen human life is less real and a kind of illusion to the more solid reality of having Christ as my life and living Christ.
This must be so because the New Testament speaks of "the life that is REALLY life."
As the Recovery Version translates 1 Timothy 6:19
"Laying away for themselves a good foundation as a treasure for the future, that they may lay hold on that which is really life."
"That which is REALLY life" implies that the more real life is the eternal life which is Jesus Christ.
Some other translations of 1 Timothy 6:19.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
storing up for themselves a good reserve for the age to come, so that they may take hold of life that is real.
International Standard Version
By doing this they store up a treasure for themselves that is a good foundation for the future, so that they can keep their hold on the life that is real.
NET Bible
In this way they will save up a treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the future and so lay hold of what is truly life.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And they shall lay up for themselves a good foundation for what is future, that they may seize upon true life.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
By doing this they store up a treasure for themselves which is a good foundation for the future. In this way they take hold of what life really is.
Notice -
"that which is really life" or
"life that is real" or
"what is truly life" or
"true life" or
"what life really is" in these renderings.
If Jesus Christ and eternal life are what life really is, and truly life, and that which is really life then where is the symbol and where is the substance?
We could well say that "For me to live is Christ" is in fact more real than an allegorical living myself apart from and without Christ.
When people observe some New Testament phrases as just a figure of speech, you should ask "Well, where is the more solid reality of things actually lie?"
To live Christ is to lay hold of a firm foundation for the kingdom age following Christ's return and the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth 1,000 years following that millennial age. Today we can foretaste the life that is really life and is true life and what life truly is in abiding in Jesus Christ.
"
Originally posted by sonshipPray to the Father in the Name of Jesus (Yahshua) for understanding.Figures of speech.
To speak of "figures of speech" is to imply one thing is less real but something else is more real.
For example "For me to live my own life, to live ME" is really real.
But "For me to live is Christ" is less real and is a figure of speech.
The problem here is which is really more real?
Is for me to live so ...[text shortened]... life that is really life and is true life and what life truly is in abiding in Jesus Christ.
"
-Removed-My answer to your question is doctrinal agendas. Very clever it is to couch scripture in phraseology and wrest from it what one may think or want it to mean.
It is why there are so many opposing views.
Very dangerous to tamper with the Word of God. Scripture must be compared with scripture to learn its meaning.
Originally posted by RJHindsAmen. I do.
Pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus (Yahshua) for understanding.
So when we speak of a figure of speech we have to consider what is more real and what is less real.
I have a physical body. It is very real to me. I cannot deny that my body is very real to me.
But interestingly, unless Jesus Christ intervenes, this real body of mine will crumble into DUST and be no more. Yet as a Christian I have a promise that Christ will swallow up my mortality with immortality.
"For also, we who are in this tabernacle [this natural physical body] groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)
So being a member of the Body of Christ raises a question. Which is really MORE a lasting and solid reality? Is my body, this temporary tabernacle of mortality, or the immmortal glorified body "swallowed up by [divine] life" more real.
I would have to say that the Body of Christ is more substantial and my natural physical body is more the "figure of speech".
No doubt, my body is real. If you stick me with a pencil you will unleash a real response of some kind from me. But if you burn me at the stake, my hope is hurled onto Someone More real, more indestructible, more unconquerable. And I am a member of His divine and mystical Body.
So which is more a eternal reality? I would say that compared to the Body of Christ, my physical body is like a symbol pointing TO that more solid reality.
This is the concern that some of us have when critics of sound New Testament teaching begin to dismiss this and that biblical phrase as just a "figure of speech".
Who is the "figure" anyway?
And who is the shadow compared to the solid reality?
"Let no one therefore judge you in eating and in drinking or in respect of a feast or of a new moon or of the Sabbath, Which are a shadow of the things to come, but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:15,16)
Maybe for too long we have been embracing the shadows foolishly and not turning to embrace the body of reality from Whom all the shadows are cast.
Originally posted by sonshipDo you know that the body of Witness Lee was raised from the dead?
Amen. I do.
So when we speak of a figure of speech we have to consider what is more real and what is less real.
I have a physical body. It is very real to me. I cannot deny that my body is very real to me.
But interestingly, unless Jesus Christ intervenes, this real body of mine will crumble into DUST and be no more. Yet as a Christian I have ...[text shortened]... ows foolishly and not turning to embrace the body of reality from Whom all the shadows are cast.
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Originally posted by RJHindsThe value of Brother Witness Lee's testimony was how powerfully the overcoming life of Christ was manifested in him in his service and daily life as a Christian. In our brother's mundane daily life and service the fragrance of Christ was powerfully sensed.
Do you know that the body of Witness Lee was raised from the dead?
He taught and demonstrated how ordinary believer can go about their daily lives in union with this glorious and available Christ as the church building life giving Spirit.
His growing in physical age and death were not spectacularly unlike the growing old of any other person. Some form of cancer took him away. But what was such a testimony to us was his every day enjoyment of the indwelling grace of Christ.
Like many other saints in Christ his body is buried and he awaits the resurrection, rapture, and glorification of his physical body. Nothing beyond the typical splendid promises of the New Testament to every other child of God has happened to Witness Lee.
So any superstitious claims that you may wish to interject into the Forum I completely have no interest in. And any "guilt by association" you may attach to Witness Lee because of such fallacious ideas have no effect on either history or the Bible's truth.
No, I am not on the edge of my seat with batted breath, eager to hear what you will next write.
The focus here is not Witness Lee at all to me, but Christ. I quote Lee not for the sake of quoting Lee. I quote Lee or any other useful servant of God for the goal of exploring "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel".
Originally posted by sonshipIf it is true that Witness Lee bragged that he could teach contradictory ideas and get away with it, as one of his pupils indicated, then it would be wise not to put much faith in his teachings. That testimony seems to point to the fact that Witness Lee had become too puffed up in himself.
The value of Brother Witness Lee's testimony was how powerfully the overcoming life of Christ was manifested in him in his service and daily life as a Christian. In our brother's mundane daily life and service the fragrance of Christ was powerfully sensed.
He taught and demonstrated how ordinary believer can go about their daily lives in union with this ...[text shortened]... rvant of God for the goal of exploring [b]"the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel".[/b]
You can easily divorce yourself of any "guilt by association" by divorcing yourself from these heretical teachings and returning to the clear teachings of Christ and His good news to mankind.
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat about those people in isolated places like deep in the Amazon who never heard this word and never will?
If it is true that Witness Lee bragged that he could teach contradictory ideas and get away with it, as one of his pupils indicated, then it would be wise not to put much faith in his teachings. That testimony seems to point to the fact that Witness Lee had become too puffed up in himself.
You can easily divorce yourself of any "guilt by association" by ...[text shortened]... heretical teachings and returning to the clear teachings of Christ and His good news to mankind.