Romans 8

I would like to hear from anyone who has an opinion on this passage below. I suspect that this passage is used by Christians to show that only Christians can please God and all others [ie nonChristians] cannot. By extension only Christians can do good works while nonChristians cannot.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:1-14 KJV)

Here are my thoughts on this passage and related issues:

1. Good works means just that - good works. Good works cannot be bad works or evil works. Good works done by a Christian and good works done by a nonChristian remain good. This passage above, neither the one below, can be used to show that good works is evil or bad:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

Christ is saying here that these peoples works were NOT GOOD as they are workers of iniquity. In addition good works was around way before the time of Christ.

2. There are two kinds of followers of Christ or those 'in Christ'
- those who are led by the spirit
- those who are led by the flesh
as clearly stated here:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
and again:
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
and again
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Clearly not all Christians or those who claim to be such will have the spirit of God in them. Paul is saying it clearly :
[b]IF [notice the IF] YOU HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN YOU THEN YOU WILL LIVE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND BE THE SONS OF GOD[b]

It would be nice to hear some comments from anyone who can condense their thoughts and write in clear simple language.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I would like to hear from anyone who has an opinion on this passage below. I suspect that this passage is used by Christians to show that only Christians can please God and all others [ie nonChristians] cannot. By extension only Christians can do good works while nonChristians cannot.

[quote]There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Chri ...[text shortened]... ar some comments from anyone who can condense their thoughts and write in clear simple language.

To begin with no one not even in all of our exchanges said that good works
were anything less than good works. By definition a good work is just a
good work, on the on set I said that! What you are missing is the state
of the person who is doing them, in the flesh they cannot please God! So it
does not matter if a 'good work' is being done or not, it will not matter!

Out side of Christ no one will be saved, He is the Way, the Truth, and the
Life, no matter how hard you want it otherwise it seems.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
To begin with no one not even in all of our exchanges said that good works
were anything less than good works. By definition a good work is just a
good work, on the on set I said that! What you are missing is the state
of the person who is doing them, in the flesh they cannot please God! So it
does not matter if a 'good work' is being done or not, it wi ...[text shortened]... is the Way, the Truth, and the
Life, no matter how hard you want it otherwise it seems.
Kelly

Who exactly is 'in the flesh'?

Originally posted by KellyJay
To begin with no one not even in all of our exchanges said that good works
were anything less than good works.

You said good works done in the flesh is meaningless.

What exactly does that mean. You cannot possibly mean that good works is good works if it is meaningless.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You said good works done in the flesh is meaningless.

What exactly does that mean. You cannot possibly mean that good works is good works if it is meaningless.

Good works do not save. Jesus saves. YAHshua (YAH saves).

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by Rajk999
You said good works done in the flesh is meaningless.

What exactly does that mean. You cannot possibly mean that good works is good works if it is meaningless.

A good work is a good work yes, but only Jesus saves.
Anyone can do a good work, by definition it is simply a work that is good.
Doing good works does not automatically mean one is right with God!
The only One that makes us right with God is Jesus Christ!

When we become Christians, we receive God into our lives, we start working
with God as He lives in us, those are the works that God accepts. As we
follow His lead, as He puts on our hearts the needs of those He wants us to
go to for His name sake. After all, it isn't us that brought God into our lives
He was the One that called us first.

If you do not have God's Spirit in you, if you are not living in the Spirit of
God there is only one other place you can be, in your own flesh, doing your
own thing.

As I pointed out to you, that nothing anyone can do to please God in that
condition! We are to full of sin, even our good works do not please God and
according to scripture cannot please God. So casting out devils, will carry
no weight with God, prophesy in His name, preform miracles, will carry no
weight, it will not please God. As I pointed out to you about Matthew that
no one called those people liars, no one denied what they did, they fell short
in the only place that matters, knowing the Lord.

Good works will be done following the Lord, His good works, not the ones
we pick and choose for ourselves, but the ones He leads us into. They will
be done for Him Jesus' glory, not to make us feel good, not to make us look
good, not to 'get us in right with God'! We are to lift up Jesus not ourselves,
we are give God the glory for our lives, not pat ourselves on our backs as if
we now earn God's favor! We can never earn God's favor, we were given
God's grace and mercy, BECAUSE we cannot earn God's favor.


Matthew 7:21-23New International Version (NIV)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

Originally posted by KellyJay
A good work is a good work yes, but only Jesus saves.
Anyone can do a good work, by definition it is simply a work that is good.
Doing good works does not automatically mean one is right with God!
The only One that makes us right with God is Jesus Christ!

When we become Christians, we receive God into our lives, we start working
with God as He lives ...[text shortened]... any miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

So in summary:

Christians are in the Spirit.
Non Christians are in the flesh

Christians do good works that count
Non Christians good works do not count.

By the way, that Matt 7 passage you keep quoting does not support your doctrine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So in summary:

Christians are in the Spirit.
Non Christians are in the flesh

Christians do good works that count
Non Christians good works do not count.

By the way, that Matt 7 passage you keep quoting does not support your doctrine.

You can explain why Matt 7 doesn't fit, I'd be happy to be corrected.
With respect to works, how do you read the scriptures I've been quoting?
You believe God must accept what people do in the flesh outside of God?
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
So in summary:

Christians are in the Spirit.
Non Christians are in the flesh

Christians do good works that count
Non Christians good works do not count.

By the way, that Matt 7 passage you keep quoting does not support your doctrine.

So I know, what do you mean good works that count?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You can explain why Matt 7 doesn't fit, I'd be happy to be corrected.
With respect to works, how do you read the scriptures I've been quoting?
You believe God must accept what people do in the flesh outside of God?
Kelly

In the opening post I explained why Matt 7 does not fit your doctrine. I said:

Christ is saying here that these peoples works were NOT GOOD as they are WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

You on the other hand are saying that the peoples works are GOOD but Christ still rejected them.

You are not repeating what the Bible says but adding your little assumption to it.

I will say it again:

THE PEOPLE THINK THEIR WORKS WERE GOOD
CHRIST DID NOT AGREE AS THEY ARE EVIL WORKERS.

It is NOT as you say ie that their works were GOOD but CHrist still rejected them.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So I know, what do you mean good works that count?
Kelly

I think you used the expression 'good works done in the flesh are meaningless'?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think you used the expression 'good works done in the flesh are meaningless'?

I believe the idea is that it is the motive of the heart of the person that God uses to declare the works good or acceptable. God considered the sacrifice of Abel to be more acceptable than Cain's. Jesus considered the penny given by the widow woman greater than thousands of dollars given by some others.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe the idea is that it is the motive of the heart of the person that God uses to declare the works good or acceptable. God considered the sacrifice of Abel to be more acceptable than Cain's. Jesus considered the penny given by the widow woman greater than thousands of dollars given by some others.

Ok. I agree. Can you relate that to the issues in the opening post?
Alternatively what is your take on KJs interpretation of Matt 7.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok. I agree. Can you relate that to the issues in the opening post?
Alternatively what is your take on KJs interpretation of Matt 7.

I suppose that the ones in Matthew 7 that claimed they were doing wonderful works in the Lord's name considered their works good, however, it appears that the Lord did not agree with them. Maybe this is because the Lord knew the motives of their hearts were not good, even though the works appear wonderful to others.

Just giving a penny does not seem good or wonderful to most compared to somebody who gives a thousand dollars, but Jesus knew her heart and her situation.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I suppose that the ones in Matthew 7 that claimed they were doing wonderful works in the Lord's name considered their works good, however, it appears that the Lord did not agree with them. Maybe this is because the Lord knew the motives of their hearts were not good, even though the works appear wonderful to others.

Just giving a penny does not seem go ...[text shortened]... t compared to somebody who gives a thousand dollars, but Jesus knew her heart and her situation.

Ok so that is my interpretation also. I will repeat it :

The people thought that their works were good, but Christ said they were evil workers [workers of iniquity]. Clearly their works were not good works [for whatever reason]

And I futher agree that good works has nothing to do with volume but with the motive and the heart and mind of the Christian.

So what do you make of KJs claim that their works were good works but it is because they did not have a personal relationship with Christ, that Christ rejected their good works?