Sacred Name Movement

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I remember reading that there was some concern expressed by Muslims that
Christians should be permitted to use the term, 'Allah', for the God of the Bible, and it
strikes me as somewhat peculiar that they should want to do so, for Allah is, in my
mind, essentially a Muslim deity, a Pakistani Christian in contrast would never refer to
God as 'Allah', simply because it has Islamic connotations.

That is because Allah has no son, unlike the God of the Christians.

Originally posted by RJHinds
That is because Allah has no son, like the God of the Christians.

sorry that makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sorry that makes no sense to me.

Sorry I made a mistake. Should have said "unlike". Jesus is the Son of God
to Christians. To the Muslims, Jesus is a prophet below Mohammed for Allah
they say has no son.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I remember reading that there was some concern expressed by Muslims that
Christians should be permitted to use the term, 'Allah', for the God of the Bible, and it
strikes me as somewhat peculiar that they should want to do so, for Allah is, in my
mind, essentially a Muslim deity, a Pakistani Christian in contrast would never refer to
God as 'Allah', simply because it has Islamic connotations.

I seem to remember there was some fuss made by Islamic hardliners in Malaysia a year or two ago. The Malaysian language is quite similar to Indonesian but partisan militancy in the two countries differs a bit.

"Allah", in Indonesian, is a word used for "God" by both Christians and Muslims. I am not quite sure what you think "Pakistani Christians" have to do with this; it's a different country, in a different part of the world, with different languages.

I also don't think you finding it peculiar that Indonesian Christians use the word "'Allah' [...]because it has Islamic connotations" has much traction as I have already pointed out that it also has Christian connotations in Indonesia.

As I said on page one, I think Muslims and Christians believe in the same 'one and only' monotheist God, albeit by way of different cultural traditions and different literature. As I said before, in my experience, it is only extremist Muslims and extremist Christians who believe that they don't believe in the same God.

Originally posted by FMF
I seem to remember there was some fuss made by Islamic hardliners in Malaysia a year or two ago. The Malaysian language is quite similar to Indonesian but partisan militancy in the two countries differs a bit.

"Allah", in Indonesian, is a word used for "God" by both Christians and Muslims. I am not quite sure what you think "Pakistani Christians" have to do ims and extremist Christians who believe that they don't believe in the same God.

I use the example of Pakistani Christians as a religious minority in an essentially
Islamic society who have a strict aversion to using the name Allah, primarily because
its is associated with an Islamic deity. Now while I understand that in Arabic, it simply
means God, it never the less carries with it, Islamic connotations, why? because, the
God of the Arabs is an Islamic deity. Anyone who has read the Koran or the Bible
knows that its a different deity entirely, regardless of the claims being made that its
essentially one and the same. In my experience Christian minorities are resentful of
predominately Islamic culture because of the prejudice they face, even as Muslims
face prejudice in predominately Christian societies, generally speaking.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Anyone who has read the Koran or the Bible knows that its a different deity entirely, regardless of the claims being made that its essentially one and the same.

I would say that anyone who has read the Koran or the Bible without a personal stake in the them-or-us partisanship that is the scourge of religion the world over, will see that the Koran or the Bible are essentially different approaches to the same 'one-and-only' God, with these differences being rooted in things like geography, anthropology, demography, culture and history. Most humans believe there is a single God. And their perception of that single God has varied over the course of history and continues to vary at different places across the globe. This is reflected in their different traditions and different holy literature. This diversity does not alter the fact that it is the same single God that they perceive.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I use the example of Pakistani Christians as a religious minority in an essentially Islamic society who have a strict aversion to using the name Allah, primarily because its is associated with an Islamic deity.

I still don't really see the relevance of "Pakistani Christians", robbie. Indonesians don't have an aversion to using the name "Allah" - it means "God".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
In my experience Christian minorities are resentful of predominately Islamic culture because of the prejudice they face, even as Muslims face prejudice in predominately Christian societies, generally speaking.

And you think your "experience" ought to be reflected in the vocabulary of a language spoken in a country you haven't been to? I'm not taking the Michael here. I am baffled by how anglophones like you and Suzianne seem to want to project your anglophone linguistic analysis, such as it is, onto cultures and languages that you do not have "experience" of.

Originally posted by FMF
I still don't really see the relevance of "Pakistani Christians", robbie. Indonesians don't have an aversion to using the name "Allah" - it means "God".

what is it about a Christian minority living in a predominately Muslim society that yet
evades you FMF. Is it so hard to understand? Are you saying that Allah has no Islamic
connotations and that the perceptions of others are due primarily to their instance that
everything be Anglicized, or that they cannot see beyond their own native language,
are you FMF, why are you so grumpy today, you've already alienated one poster, are
you intent on doing it to anyone who calls into question the validity of your assertions,
are you FMF?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it about a Christian minority living in a predominately Muslim society that yet evades you FMF.

Well, I too could ask, what is it about what I have said about the Christian minority living in the predominately Muslim society of Indonesia that evades you, robbie? Indonesian Christians use the word "Allah", among others, for "God" despite what you have said about Christian minorities living in predominately Muslim societies.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, I too could ask, what is it about what I have said about the Christian minority living in the predominately Muslim society of Indonesia that evades you, robbie? Indonesian Christians use the word "Allah", among others, for "God" despite what you have said about Christian minorities living in predominately Muslim societies.

so what? other Christian minorities dont for the reasons that i have specified, that
being ill treatment and prejudice.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Are you saying that Allah has no Islamic connotations [...]

Of course not. In Indonesia the term "Allah" has both Islamic and Christian connotations.

Originally posted by FMF
Of course not. In Indonesia the term "Allah" has both Islamic and Christian connotations.

Do they incorporate any other Arabic phrases or words that you know of? rather
interestingly there wasa tendency to say on news items that i have watched to say
instead of Khudafiz/goodbye (Khuda is Persian for God) and interpolate
Allahfiz/ggodbye (Arabic for God )

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...why are you so grumpy today, you've already alienated one poster, are
you intent on doing it to anyone who calls into question the validity of your assertions, are you FMF?

I don't see why you're now trying to make this personal, robbie. I merely pointed out that, for Indonesian Christians, "Allah" is one of the words used for "God". If you think that Indonesian Christians don't use the word "Allah" for "God" and that the information I have provided is not "valid", then just say so.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Do they incorporate any other Arabic phrases or words that you know of?

The Indonesian language was built upon the much older Melayu language and there is influence from many other languages such as Dutch, Javanese, Chinese, English, Arabic, Sundanese, Portuguese and many more.