Salvation

Originally posted by Rajk999
My apologies. I thought I was addressing Christians only. Here is the explanation:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even ov ...[text shortened]... litude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14)

his bible quote just replaces "therefore" with "so".

"so death passed upon all men" is without reason, explanation or good sense.

Otherwise the laws of every land would be passing out
sentences to descendants of criminals!! You think that fair?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sorry exactly why would I think in the context without the red letters that it wasn't
Jesus still speaking? I'm on the side of truth as well, and nothing about that is clear, you
are suggesting *I'm not sure you are* that mid-point someone else started speaking and
it wasn't Jesus, they just picked up where he stopped continuing on with the thoughts ...[text shortened]... irit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Okay, let's take a closer look at John 3:5-8.

John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus explains that "the Spirit" is required to enter "the Kingdom".

So let's look at who Jesus says receives "the Spirit".

john 14
16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you...
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Jesus says that only those who KEEP Jesus' word (commandments) love Him and receive the Holy Spirit (spirit of Truth).

This is consistent with who Jesus says will enter "the Kingdom".

Matthew 7
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Jesus says that only those who do the will of His Father (follow His word) will enter "the Kingdom".

Those who receive "the Spirit" and enter "the Kingdom" are one in the same: Those who KEEP Jesus' word (commandments).

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sorry exactly why would I think in the context without the red letters that it wasn't
Jesus still speaking? I'm on the side of truth as well, and nothing about that is clear, you
are suggesting *I'm not sure you are* that mid-point someone else started speaking and
it wasn't Jesus, they just picked up where he stopped continuing on with the thoughts ...[text shortened]... irit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

I'm sorry exactly why would I think in the context without the red letters that it wasn't
Jesus still speaking? I'm on the side of truth as well, and nothing about that is clear, you
are suggesting *I'm not sure you are* that mid-point someone else started speaking and
it wasn't Jesus, they just picked up where he stopped continuing on with the thoughts He
was making?

Evidently the translators of the NIV disagree with you. They indicate with both quotation marks and red letters that they believe that Jesus stops talking after John 3:15.

You didn't mention anything from the link I provided which offers explanations for believing that Jesus stops talking after John 3:15, so I'll post them here:

Dear Dr. Bock,
can you explain why various translations of the Bible differ on whether John 3:16 is a direct quote of Jesus or a comment of the narrator of the Gospel?
many thanks. GBU.

The answer is that there is a judgment about where Jesus words stop in John 3 as he is dialoging with Nicodemus. (Sometimes editors determine the red in red letter Bibles to say where Jesus is speaking, rather than the speaker being clearly named in the text.) Some go as far with Jesus speaking as 3:21. However the phrasing in v 16-- "one and only Son" [also in v 18] -- is more Johannine than the language of Jesus (see John 1:14, 18). Jesus speaks of himself as simply the Son in John (e.g, John 5:19) or as Son of Man (vv 13-14). The light-darkness contrast later in the unit also fits in this category. So it is likely John 3:16-21 are the comments of John on the significance of what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

Pasted from <http://blogs.bible.org/node/487>

There are other reasons as well.

Like I said,
"The truth here is that in there is disagreement amongst biblical scholars as to whether or not it is Jesus speaking in John 3:17-21. You seem to take it as a given that it is Jesus speaking."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Okay, let's take a closer look at John 3:5-8.
[quote]John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wi ...[text shortened]... Spirit" and enter "the Kingdom" are one in the same: Those who KEEP Jesus' word (commandments).

What is your point? Those that have God's Spirit belong to Him and are obeying Him.
I've no issue with that, was this something you felt I didn't agree with?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I'm sorry exactly why would I think in the context without the red letters that it wasn't
Jesus still speaking? I'm on the side of truth as well, and nothing about that is clear, you
are suggesting *I'm not sure you are* that mid-point someone else started speaking and
it wasn't Jesus, they just picked up where he stopped continuing on with the thou ...[text shortened]... it is Jesus speaking in John 3:17-21. You seem to take it as a given that it is Jesus speaking."

I don't care that the letters are red or not, that isn't what I look at since I don't use a red letter
Bible. As I told you the context has me believing it is Jesus still speaking, so there is some
disagreement on who was speaking, I fall on the side it is Jesus speaking for the reasons
I gave, the context.

Originally posted by FMF

Rajk999 is a Christian and he's made a case that is better than yours. That's all my initial comment refers to. sonship ~ and others like him ~ present a formula for "salvation" which only involves thinking certain things. Rajk999 has presented a persuasive argument that "salvation" is also possible if people are doing the things Jesus said he wants people to do.
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Your critique of my writing here is misrepresentative on a number of levels.

First: So I present a formula for salvation which ONLY involves thinking certain things.

That is a blatant false statement. The presence of Jesus Christ,the living and available Person of God incarnate, is not "ONLY" thinking certain things.

" But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, ... " ( John 1:12a)

Of course the human mind is involved. That I teach salvation is "ONLY" a matter of thinking certain things is a false representation of what I have written and quoted.

That a Christian like myself would teach that salvation ONLY involves thinking is the false belief of someone who probably does not believe that -

1.) Jesus is the definition and explanation of God.
2.) Jesus is risen from the dead.
3.) Jesus is alive and available to be received and known.
4.) Jesus removes the barrier between sinners and the living God.

Your critiques is the spin of one who thinks there is only the human mind to be engaged and nothing else.

Second: Man is of THREE parts in the Bible - spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23) .

In the New Testament there is "salvation" or being "saved" related to the three parts.

1.) The salvation of the human spirit is in regeneration.
2.) The salvation of the human soul is in transformation..
3.) The salvation of the human body is in transfiguration.

Since this is a process and an ongoing one we may speak of the Christians' salvation as being in the past, progressing in the present, and being in the future.

1.) I was saved in being born again.
2.) I am undergoing being saved through the life long transformation of my soul.
3.) I await being saved in my body at the transfiguration when I am either resurrected or raptured.

So in the NT we have these three aspects of salvation. Each is important. None should be neglected. And they do not contradict one another.

If some teachers emphasize a salvation in only one aspect only, that is not the fault of the New Testament. And I have written on this Forum of all THREE aspects.

So you false statement is your own erroneous wishful thinking about what I have written.

If you object to my many references to Romans 10:9-13 about calling and believing in the heart in Jesus, that passage too is not ONLY about human thinking.

Its point is that God is faithful.
Its point is not OUR faith alone but OUR faith PLUS the faithfulness of the living Savior God.

Only an atheist or an agnostic would assume ONLY human thinking is required for salvation there.

Third: Obedience to the ever leading indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ concerns salvation of the soul in sanctification and transformation. It is quite logical that salvation in BIRTH normally shold lead on to salvation in GROWTH. And that divine life born in a man is meant to grow in the man, mature in the man, and arrive at a culmination in the man.

In fact Jesus teaches that the kingdom of God is a matter of unfolding stages.

" And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself:
first a blade,
then an ear,
then full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29)

At each stage of development it is the kingdom of God .
So one can be born into the kingdom yet still be growing to enter the kingdom in its further stages.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Rajk999 is a Christian and he's made a case that is better than yours. That's all my initial comment refers to. sonship ~ and others like him ~ present a formula for "salvation" which only involves thinking certain things. Rajk999 has presented a persuasive argument that "salvation" is also possible if people are doing the things Jesus said he wants peop ...[text shortened]... ne can be born into the kingdom yet still be growing to enter the kingdom in its further stages.

There are two ways being discussed here, us being right by our efforts, and us being right
by God's. Both ways require us doing the works God has for us to do, no one is suggesting
that we avoid working. What makes us right with God is where the real debate is, it most
certainly isn't that one requires work and the other does not!

If we get right with God through our efforts, than it is through our efforts we are right with
God not the blood of Jesus Christ. If we are striving to be worthy of God, and we think
we can get there by being good enough, by doing enough good things, than our work
is being used to justify us so that God will accept us.

If we are justified by God through grace, by faith which is a gift of God than we are right
by God's grace, not our efforts. We will be justified by Jesus effort not our own, so we
than can do the works God has for us to do, not to be justified, but to simply obey God.

One requires us coming to God, the other does not. One requires us to trust in our own
righteousness, the other in God's. One has us working towards our own salvation earning
it as if it were a pay check, the other has us justified by Jesus, then doing the work of God
because that is what God calls us to do.

Only as we abide in God and His Word abides in us will it matter. Those that reject Christ
or refuse to believe in Him are condemned already. I fail to see why anyone would even
think having to work towards God good grace is something they would want to do outside
of pride in their own righteousness, which suggests in my opinion Jesus wasn't enough,
and they are not that bad.

Originally posted by KellyJay
"Dont ask me about the amount of sins or amount of good works etc etc."

I can see why you'd want to avoid one of your major points of your doctrine since there is
no Biblical number.

If there is no biblical number then how can I answer the question? Also it is as foolish a question the disciples asked Christ about how many times they should forgive.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If there is no biblical number then how can I answer the question? Also it is as foolish a question the disciples asked Christ about how many times they should forgive.

You have said two things to me that made me ask about the number of sins.
It seems unless I misunderstood you when you said God will forgive if the person
deserves forgiveness that at some point sinners now have to worry about being
worthy of forgiveness. So with God we can ask for forgiveness and at some point in
time this is no longer going to work with God. That either puts some number of sins
as one to many or something else is going on.

As I understand salvation we are saved by grace not by works, that the faith we have for
this is also a gift from God it isn't something we can earn. We are either in Christ, where
we are abiding in Him and His Word is abiding in us, or we are not. For me this is where
if we find ourselves outside of Christ once tasted His grace that we can be left behind.
That is not a number of sins, but a state of our relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

If you don't believe we need Jesus just good works, I can only imagine there is some
number of sins that if you hit, you'll no longer be good enough to be forgiven. That does
not make sense to me, but I'm trying to understand your views...I'm only relating what I
think you have been saying. I assume or hope I'm wrong, so please correct me.

"So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- our past sins before we received a knowledge of the truth
- our sins after we received a knowledge of the truth

Christ it seems dealt with the first two. Thereafter there are consequences. Of course there is room for forgiveness and repentance, but the Bible says clearly that cannot go in indefinitely. "


"Did I not answer already that forgiveness and repentance comes after ? God will forgive if the person deserves forgiveness.

What is this foolishness about number of sins and number of good deeds per week .. what rubbish?!"

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have said two things to me that made me ask about the number of sins.
It seems unless I misunderstood you when you said God will forgive if the person
deserves forgiveness that at some point sinners now have to worry about being
worthy of forgiveness. So with God we can ask for forgiveness and at some point in
time this is no longer going to work wi ...[text shortened]... at is this foolishness about number of sins and number of good deeds per week .. what rubbish?!"

I think Christ was very clear that those who do not do good works will not enter the Kingdom of God, while those who do good works will enter.

And it is Jesus Christ that will save these righteous people

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think Christ was very clear that those who do not do good works will not enter the Kingdom of God, while those who do good works will enter.

And it is Jesus Christ that will save these righteous people

So which is it, Jesus who saves them or their works?

Originally posted by KellyJay
So which is it, Jesus who saves them or their works?

Jesus said that he will grant eternal life to those who he calls righteous and he will cast into the lake of fire those who he calls wicked.

You seem obsessed with that question rather than understanding who are the people Christ will allow to enter into the Kingdom, and why?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Jesus said that he will grant eternal life to those who he calls righteous and he will cast into the lake of fire those who he calls wicked.

You seem obsessed with that question rather than understanding who are the people Christ will allow to enter into the Kingdom, and why?

To those He calls righteous, are the ones He makes righteous. Jesus did not come to
save the righteous, but sinners. I do believe you have it backwards, to think we can earn
by our efforts before God to be called righteous by our good works. If we are righteous
we don't need saved we are righteous, but sinners need to be saved.

The lake of fire will be filled with sinners who could have been saved, and heaven with
sinners saved by grace. The reason that is true, is because we are all sinners!

Originally posted by KellyJay
What is your point? Those that have God's Spirit belong to Him and are obeying Him.
I've no issue with that, was this something you felt I didn't agree with?

What is your point? Those that have God's Spirit belong to Him and are obeying Him.

No. The points are just as I stated them:

Jesus says that only those who KEEP Jesus' word (commandments) love Him and receive the Holy Spirit (spirit of Truth).

Jesus says that only those who do the will of His Father ([KEEP] His word) will enter "the Kingdom".

Those who receive "the Spirit" and enter "the Kingdom" are one in the same: Those who KEEP Jesus' word (commandments).

You have it the wrong way round. Only those that KEEP Jesus' word (commandments) receive "the Spirit" and enter "the Kingdom".

What's more, Jesus goes even further in John 15:

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Those who do not KEEP the commandments of Jesus, do not abide in His love and are "cast into the fire" and "are burned".

Note that only those who KEEP Jesus' commandments as HE kept his Father's commandments abide in Jesus. Ask yourself how well Jesus KEPT His father's commandments. This is the standard that Jesus requires.

Matthew 5
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't care that the letters are red or not, that isn't what I look at since I don't use a red letter
Bible. As I told you the context has me believing it is Jesus still speaking, so there is some
disagreement on who was speaking, I fall on the side it is Jesus speaking for the reasons
I gave, the context.

You seem to keep missing the point which is the following:
"The truth here is that in there is disagreement amongst biblical scholars as to whether or not it is Jesus speaking in John 3:17-21. You seem to take it as a given that it is Jesus speaking."

It was just a minor point. It's no big deal if you don't get it.