Spirituality
15 Sep 15
18 Sep 15
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'll talk to you about points of scripture, what I will not do is talk about him with you.
I recall him disagreeing with you. I don't recall him disagreeing with what Jesus said.
But maybe I missed some things. Like I said: "I don't recall anything that he said that would lead me to believe that he believes in ignoring the word of Jesus - no less him telling others to do so (which your accusation states)
[b]If you can point me to specific posts, I'll take a look. But as it stands, he's due an apology from you."[/b]
If he has an issue with what I said, fine we will discuss it.
If you have an issue with what I said to him, than you have an issue.
I already told you, you and I disagree on how I view my discussion with him, that is all I'm
going to say about that.
18 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayWell, you made the following accusation:
I'll talk to you about points of scripture, what I will not do is talk about him with you.
If he has an issue with what I said, fine we will discuss it.
If you have an issue with what I said to him, than you have an issue.
I already told you, you and I disagree on how I view my discussion with him, that is all I'm
going to say about that.
"Since you are telling others to ignore the Word of Jesus I would too if I were you."
I've asked you a couple of time to back up your accusation by showing exactly where he did this. Thus far you haven't.
Seems like you should back it up or apologize for making a false accusation about him. It's that simple.
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayHey .. forget about it. We say stuff about each other .. I do it sometimes and you do it. Not a big deal. My skin is thick. Like ToO said later down .. truth is the important thing.. lets work towards that. i hold no hard feelings against anyone... least of all you pal..🙂
After thinking about this thread, I do want to tell you I'm sorry I've done and said
something about you. When we exchange thoughts and views it is fair game to banter
about each other, I entered into a discussion about you with someone else and talked
about you. I'm sorry I did that, I was wrong to do it, if we were debating okay, but that
was me going after you without you being involved. Again, sorry!
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Thank you Rajk999
Hey .. forget about it. We say stuff about each other .. I do it sometimes and you do it. Not a big deal. My skin is thick. Like ToO said later down .. truth is the important thing.. lets work towards that. i hold no hard feelings against anyone... least of all you pal..🙂
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'll address one of the points we disagree about, but I will no longer speak about Him
I recall him disagreeing with you. I don't recall him disagreeing with what Jesus said.
But maybe I missed some things. Like I said: "I don't recall anything that he said that would lead me to believe that he believes in ignoring the word of Jesus - no less him telling others to do so (which your accusation states)
[b]If you can point me to specific posts, I'll take a look. But as it stands, he's due an apology from you."[/b]
while we do it. If you care to go over where we disagree you can, but our disagreements
are between us. If there is anything we posted you want to talk about that of course is
fair game, I just don't think it is proper to talk about him anymore like I have, I was wrong
to do that with you.
Jesus said that those that do not believe in Him are condemned already. Scripture
reference for this is in John below. This has Jesus revealing a clear distinction between
those that believe in Him and those that do not. This means that without Jesus Christ
we are condemned in our sins.
I believe this is one of the biggest points of contention, I know many believe that God
has setup salvation for everyone, and He has, but we must answer God's call on our
lives to come to Him. The faith required to be saved is also a gift of God, it isn't through
our works do we become righteous. God makes us righteous then we do His works!
When we are working for salvation that is more like a job where God has to pay us, there
is nothing about God's salvation where God owes us anything.
John 3: 17-21
17 “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.”
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm on the side of truth. Are you? If you are, you'll allow truth to shape your beliefs rather than dogma.
I'll address one of the points we disagree about, but I will no longer speak about Him
while we do it. If you care to go over where we disagree you can, but our disagreements
are between us. If there is anything we posted you want to talk about that of course is
fair game, I just don't think it is proper to talk about him anymore like I have, I was wrong ...[text shortened]... true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.”
Taking the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth as a whole, one must KEEP His word (commandments) for "eternal life" / the Kingdom of God.
One of the most prevalent themes of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth, is the importance of His word:
Understanding His word.
Not just understanding His word, but believing His word.
Not just believing His word, but following His word.
Not just following His word, but keeping his word.
Or if you want to look at it the other way around:
To keep His word, one must follow His word.
To follow His word, one must believe His word.
To believe His word, one must understand His word.
Within that context, what does it mean to "believe" Jesus? To "believe in" Jesus? Would not someone who keeps the commandments of Jesus also have to "believe" the commandments of Jesus?
Jesus said that those that do not believe in Him are condemned already. Scripture
reference for this is in John below. This has Jesus revealing a clear distinction between
those that believe in Him and those that do not.
The truth here is that in there is disagreement amongst biblical scholars as to whether or not it is Jesus speaking in John 3:17-21. You seem to take it as a given that it is Jesus speaking. There are a number of reasons to believe that it is commentary by the writer of John as I do, some of which can be found here:
http://blogs.bible.org/node/487
There are more if you want to read about them.
Not all translations indicate that it is Jesus speaking. For example, the NIV does not:
http://biblehub.com/niv/john/3.htm
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm sorry exactly why would I think in the context without the red letters that it wasn't
I'm on the side of truth. Are you? If you are, you'll allow truth to shape your beliefs rather than dogma.
Taking the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth as a whole, one must KEEP His word (commandments) for "eternal life" / the Kingdom of God.
One of the most prevalent themes of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth, is the importan ...[text shortened]... te that it is Jesus speaking. For example, the NIV does not:
http://biblehub.com/niv/john/3.htm
Jesus still speaking? I'm on the side of truth as well, and nothing about that is clear, you
are suggesting *I'm not sure you are* that mid-point someone else started speaking and
it wasn't Jesus, they just picked up where he stopped continuing on with the thoughts He
was making?
Even if that were truth, and I don't believe it is, another very strong limiting verse by Jesus
is still being said, in John 5-8 you must be born again, which as other scripture points out
without God's Spirit you don't belong to Him Romans 8:9. These among other scriptures
pointng out that more than just existing has us receiving from God gifts we do not deserve
but only due to His love are we offered them. We cannot earn them, to try is to belittle
them in my opinion, because they are so great!
Inclosing I don't see why that was not Jesus saying those words, and if you are correct
you still run into another quite limiting verse where Jesus points out you must be born
again.
John:
5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
19 Sep 15
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
Is the word 'impossible' anywhere in there ?
NO it is not.
Then why ask such a foolish question?
Is it impossible for a camel to go through an eye of a needle?
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by whodeyBoy o boy you have a long way to go. The camel in the days of Christ had to pass through [at times] a small passage in the city gate called the eye of a needle. It was difficult maneuver but not an impossible one.
Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
Is it impossible for a camel to go through an eye of a needle?
20 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999So according to you if you are "good" enough then the camel will pass through the eye?
Boy o boy you have a long way to go. The camel in the days of Christ had to pass through [at times] a small passage in the city gate called the eye of a needle. It was difficult maneuver but not an impossible one.
Why did Jesus come then? Either way it's hard to be good enough for salvation.
Originally posted by whodeyWhy did Jesus come?
So according to you if you are "good" enough then the camel will pass through the eye?
Why did Jesus come then? Either way it's hard to be good enough for salvation.
Here is the story:
- Adam sinned
- the wages of sin is death
- sin therefore fell on all of Adams descendants
- without a blood sacrifice nobody would get eternal life
- God sent Christ to die for the sins of the world [PAST SINS]
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
- Christ did that and by doing so he freed mankind from the bondage sin in the flesh and of the Law of Moses
- Christ instituted his own law and commandments
- whoever believes in Christ will believe also in what he commanded, and do what he commanded
- those believers who follows Christ commandments will get eternal life.
- Christ will know who his people .
Your attitude that you cannot be good enough means that you cannot follow Christ commandments. You think you are unable to do so. You are therefore condemning yourself. Probably if your had really truly believed with your heart in Christ then following would not have been so hard as you claim.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1Jn 5:3-4)
Originally posted by Rajk999"- God sent Christ to die for the sins of the world [PAST SINS]"
Why did Jesus come?
Here is the story:
- Adam sinned
- the wages of sin is death
- sin therefore fell on all of Adams descendants
- without a blood sacrifice nobody would get eternal life
- God sent Christ to die for the sins of the world [PAST SINS]
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his ...[text shortened]... th the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1Jn 5:3-4)
Okay, so I understand you, only our past sins were forgiven. Those would be past sins
from what point in time? Past implies some date certain that we can look back from to
be the past in.
When Jesus was praying to the Father about those that the Father gave Him, and when
He mentioned those of us who would come after. Our sins hadn't happen yet because we
hadn't been born yet. So our past sins were not past yet, did Jesus die for those too?
What do you mean past sins?
Were the past sins from the point in time Jesus died, and none of those after that point
in time? So Jesus did not die for your sins or mine?
What do you mean?
Originally posted by KellyJayThis passage explains :
"- God sent Christ to die for the sins of the world [PAST SINS]"
Okay, so I understand you, only our past sins were forgiven. Those would be past sins
from what point in time? Past implies some date certain that we can look back from to
be the past in.
When Jesus was praying to the Father about those that the Father gave Him, and when
He mentioned ...[text shortened]... hose after that point
in time? So Jesus did not die for your sins or mine?
What do you mean?
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:26-29)
So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- our past sins before we received a knowledge of the truth
- our sins after we received a knowledge of the truth
Christ it seems dealt with the first two. Thereafter there are consequences. Of course there is room for forgiveness and repentance, but the Bible says clearly that cannot go in indefinitely.
I know many people attempt to discredit this statement from Paul and explain it away... but for those interested in the truth in the Bible, they will accept it.
Originally posted by Rajk999So Christ died for just what we were unaware of, and what happens if you sin after you
This passage explains :
[i] For [b]if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sore ...[text shortened]... and explain it away... but for those interested in the truth in the Bible, they will accept it.[/b]
become a believer? Are you then guilty and on your way to Hell? I do not discredit the
statement by Paul, but I don't think it means what you are suggesting. I'd like to hear what
you do with sins that were done after you become a believer.
Also what version are you using, I've looked at these verses in several different versions
and the point about sinning carrying a little different meaning between many of them. They
all say close to the same thing, but with more than a few translations text centers on those
who go on sinning, not just committing a single sin.