1. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Aug '05 11:11
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Wierdly enough I've just noticed my RHP handle is an anagram of Mr. R Satan...
    Some have fame thrust upon them! Let's rock!
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    02 Aug '05 17:22
    Originally posted by Starrman
    If god created the angels, and they were filled with sin (pride, anger etc) did god create that sin? What was the point of creating sin? Previous to creating humans, was there a need for it? Were angels flawed and god had to try again? Did god make a mistake the first time round? Was Satan jealous of humans?

    I'd seriously like to here your answers, I have always wondered what theology consist of if we look at a point prior to human creation.
    The angels that God created were not 'filled with sin', by my understanding. God did not create sin, but with free will available, sin, the choosing of anything opposite to God's good plan, would also be available.

    (It should be noted that sinning is not just doing all the fun things that party-pooper God arbitrarily decided he didn't want us to enjoy; rather, sinning is the misuse or abuse of the ideal function. If I built you a mercedes, gave you the operation manual and you went and poured milk in the gas tank, that would be like what we do when we violate God's instructions. We inflict ourselves more than we do Him.)

    I like Omnislash's description on page 2 of this thread. And I agree about how the angels also got to make a choice. Some chose black, and some chose white.

    Angels don't reproduce, so there are no new angels to make the decision like there are always new people who are called on to declare which side they will come down on. We are told that the angels rejoice in heaven when one sinner repents, and that the angels marvel at our salvation issues. They don't really 'get' what we go through, because they don't have to struggle with the decision like we do, I guess. It is all very interesting and it will be good to get all the details some day.

    This verse gives us a clue about the number of angels.
    Revelation 5: 11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.


    More can be read here:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0000240


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    03 Aug '05 08:24
    Originally posted by chinking58
    The angels that God created were not 'filled with sin', by my understanding. God did not create sin, but with free will available, sin, the choosing of anything opposite to God's good plan, would also be available.

    (It should be noted that sinning is not just doing all the fun things that party-pooper God arbitrarily decided he didn't want us to ...[text shortened]...
    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0000240


    whether we actually have "free will" is a different discussion, but assume there is a Christian God who grants us the power to choose our destinies, then It knows from the outset that there will be many who choose not to worship, not to "properly humble themselves". if the Christian God is All-knowing, then the creation of "free will" is the creation of sin. its the creation of the ability to sin with knowledge that the ablity will be excersised thoroughly. i think the legal term for this is "criminal negligence".

    and so, the All-Knowing Christian God knows that the creation of free-will will lead to sin for the people he created in advance, so the fact that Hell is created as a "deterant" is bogus. If "God" is all-knowing, then It knows who will be "saved" and who will be tortured in hell for eternity. if there is really free-will, then "God" can't be "all-knowing"...

    to comment on your initial post: to assume that Satan, the battle for Heaven, the garden of Eden is an historical realtiy is to miss the power of the mythology. it's metephorical in order to speak to our souls directly.

    --but it interests me that you call Adam and Eve the "1st Satanists". this "original sin" of theirs that is past down to us is the thing that makes our soul's impure and in need of Jesus's stamp of approval.

    what i don't understand is why many Christians interpret the Bible to mean that our souls are somehow wrong and dirty, that our natural tendencies must be repressed or outright destroyed. if God is good and perfect, and we are created in His image, then wouldn't it follow that we are also perfect, if at least in our souls?


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    03 Aug '05 20:52
    Originally posted by chinking58
    The angels that God created were not 'filled with sin', by my understanding. God did not create sin, but with free will available, sin, the choosing of anything opposite to God's good plan, would also be available.

    (It should be noted that sinning is not just doing all the fun things that party-pooper God arbitrarily decided he didn't want us to ...[text shortened]...
    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0000240


    when you die you go to heaven. i thought that meant you become an angel when you die, if that is true then angels are no different than humans. but when i read this thread, you guys make it seem like angels and people that died and went to heaven are two different things.
  5. Standard memberOmnislash
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    04 Aug '05 09:01
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Are there any writings which deal with the pre-human period which are accepted by Christianity? I hear an awful lot of debate on the Bible which is post creation, but I've yet to hear, from a recognised source, where Satan came from in the first place. I've read Paradise Lost which deals with the story, but obviously this is a poem, not a religious text. Are there any? If not, how do we know where Satan came from and what factors created him?
    "accepted by Christianity" is a pretty relative term these days. 😀

    Seriously though, most of what is out there about pre-creation dealings of angelic/celestial beings is not terribly credible (in the theistic sense, as far as I have found). While there certainly are such writings out there, I can not think of anything in particular that I would direct your attention to or recommend. The Vatican purportedly has sound and credible writings on the matter (what don't they have extensive writings on?). I wish you luck getting a hold of them. If you do I'd like to see them too. To my dismay, they refuse to participate with the inter-library exchange program (not that I recommend catholic dogma anyway).
  6. Standard memberOmnislash
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    04 Aug '05 09:06
    Originally posted by FreaKinGenius
    when you die you go to heaven. i thought that meant you become an angel when you die, if that is true then angels are no different than humans. but when i read this thread, you guys make it seem like angels and people that died and went to heaven are two different things.
    Indeed they are two very different things my friend. If you want to learn in depth the difference I suggest you search out a qualified religious instructor who is in accordance with your beliefs. Alternatively, I would be happy to discuss the matter with you via PM.
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Aug '05 09:39
    Originally posted by Omnislash
    This is a good question I have asked myself. To answer your question directly, I do not believe that an angel is capable of directly subverting an order of God. Such a thing would change the being by its very nature. A creature delivering a false message would not be an angel in the true sense of the term. A former angel, perhaps, but not an angel, and thi ...[text shortened]... come to their own conclusions. I hope my perception can be of use.

    Best Regards,
    Omnislash
    Your "red pill/blue pill" analogy implies angels are more than morally omniscient. For example, did Lucifer know he was going to fail? What possible impulse could cause him to do what he allegedly did if he knew absolutely all the consequences?

    I say that if the Christians are correct, any being can only refuse to be in accordance with God's will if they lack knowledge of the consequences of their choice.
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    04 Aug '05 10:05
    Originally posted by Omnislash
    "accepted by Christianity" is a pretty relative term these days. 😀

    Seriously though, most of what is out there about pre-creation dealings of angelic/celestial beings is not terribly credible (in the theistic sense, as far as I have found). While there certainly are such writings out there, I can not think of anything in particular that I would direc ...[text shortened]... rticipate with the inter-library exchange program (not that I recommend catholic dogma anyway).
    Don't knock it till you've tried it. 😀
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    04 Aug '05 10:29
    Originally posted by Omnislash
    "accepted by Christianity" is a pretty relative term these days. 😀

    Seriously though, most of what is out there about pre-creation dealings of angelic/celestial beings is not terribly credible (in the theistic sense, as far as I have found). While there certainly are such writings out there, I can not think of anything in particular that I would direc ...[text shortened]... rticipate with the inter-library exchange program (not that I recommend catholic dogma anyway).
    I have tried in the past to get hold of these sort of things, but I think you have to be someone pretty special to gain access to parts of the Vatican's library. Do any of our resident Catholics know of any sources of pre-human info?
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    04 Aug '05 10:30
    Originally posted by Starrman
    I have tried in the past to get hold of these sort of things, but I think you have to be someone pretty special to gain access to parts of the Vatican's library. Do any of our resident Catholics know of any sources of pre-human info?
    No authoritative sources, AFAIK. The Church has never definitively ruled on the matter either.
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    04 Aug '05 10:39
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    No authoritative sources, AFAIK. The Church has never definitively ruled on the matter either.
    So if we don't know for sure ('sure' being at least RC defined) what the story of Satan's origins are, does this not throw some doubt on whether he is in fact a fallen angel? Could he not also be a rival god, or other entity?
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Aug '05 10:47
    Originally posted by Starrman
    So if we don't know for sure ('sure' being at least RC defined) what the story of Satan's origins are, does this not throw some doubt on whether he is in fact a fallen angel? Could he not also be a rival god, or other entity?
    The Kabbalah would have it that Satan is an employee whose work is to test the efficacy of God's system. A hacker.

    I'm sure at the end of time Satan & God will kiss & make up.

    I don't know whether Satan and Lucifer are one and the same. Perhaps Satan whispered in Lucifer's impeccably beautiful ear...
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    04 Aug '05 11:171 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    The Kabbalah would have it that Satan is an employee whose work is to test the efficacy of God's system. A hacker.

    I'm sure at the end of time Satan & God will kiss & make up.

    I don't know whether Satan and Lucifer are one an ...[text shortened]... Perhaps Satan whispered in Lucifer's impeccably beautiful ear...
    Milton suggests that Lucifer is filled with jealousy when god names Jesus his succesor and he retires to Pandemonium to raise an army to take heaven. He turns out to be quite the geenral and I love the bits of the book where Moloch, Belial, Mammon, Beelzebub and Satan discuss tactics. After losing the war, despite looking too powerful on the first and second days (in fact Milton's account is much like a cricket test match 🙂), Lucifer is cast into Hades. It is here he takes the name Satan. In the process of escape from Hell he meets his children Sin and Death who, according to Milton, are created from Lucifer's union with Chaos.

    The poem clearly indicates that Satan is the hero of the tale, who strives to make evil his good and to overthrow a good he sees as evil. I think the character of Satan is a great one, he is introspective at times, driven, clever and I think more like I imagine Satan would be than your archetypal horned devil kind of figure. I would like to think that if god really does exist, Milton's account is as close to the truth as can be hoped.
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    04 Aug '05 11:29
    Originally posted by Starrman
    So if we don't know for sure ('sure' being at least RC defined) what the story of Satan's origins are, does this not throw some doubt on whether he is in fact a fallen angel? Could he not also be a rival god, or other entity?
    Maybe I spoke too soon.

    391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

    392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".271

    393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

    394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

    395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275
    (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
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    04 Aug '05 11:49
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Maybe I spoke too soon.

    391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: ...[text shortened]... everything God works for good with those who love him."275 (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
    I still have to wonder what the whole point is. If all the evil in the world is god's creation, as the passages below would seem to indicate (god made Satan, always knowing that he would do what he did) and god cannot be beaten by the evil he created, why bother? Are we just some game to amuse him, a game he already knows he's going to win, meanwhile people suffer and die. Why make humans? Why make Satan? Why bother even existing? If you are God, what can possibly be important? You cannot be surprised, nor swayed from your course, nor experience anything for the first time. And then he has the gall to tell those pathetic suffering simpletons whose fate he already knows to worship him or go to hell!
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