Satanist

Originally posted by Starrman
I still have to wonder what the whole point is. If all the evil in the world is god's creation, as the passages below would seem to indicate (god made Satan, always knowing that he would do what he did) and god cannot be beaten by the evil he created, why bother? Are we just some game to amuse him, a game he already knows he's going to win, meanwhile pe ...[text shortened]... those pathetic suffering simpletons whose fate he already knows to worship him or go to hell!

He's playing Populous.

Originally posted by Starrman
I still have to wonder what the whole point is. If all the evil in the world is god's creation, as the passages below would seem to indicate (god made Satan, always knowing that he would do what he did) and god cannot be beaten by the ev ...[text shortened]... letons whose fate he already knows to worship him or go to hell!

Ah, but those "pathetic simpletons" end up in Hell precisely because they commit acts of evil that merit Hell.

EDIT: I should also warn you at this point that the Catholic notion of Hell is not so much a place (like Norway) as it is a state of soul (the spiritual equivalent of being a paraplegic).

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Ah, but those "pathetic simpletons" end up in Hell precisely because they commit acts of evil that merit Hell.

EDIT: I should also warn you at this point that the Catholic notion of Hell is not so much a place (like Norway) as it is a state of soul (the spiritual equivalent of being a paraplegic).

I use the term 'pathetic simpletons' to illustrate how small humans are under the magnitude of god. Your post doesn't answer the questions, god creates men, in the full knowledge of what will happen, creates hell (whatever the notion), and then sends us all scurrying to please him or be punished, like nats under a magnifying glass. Why?

Originally posted by Starrman
I use the term 'pathetic simpletons' to illustrate how small humans are under the magnitude of god. Your post doesn't answer the questions, god creates men, in the full knowledge of what will happen, creates hell (whatever the notion), and then sends us all scurrying to please him or be punished, like nats under a magnifying glass. Why?

Your idea that God "creates" Hell reveals the underlying assumption that Hell is something external to us, separate from us, some kind of "gaol" that we're sent to as punishment after death. I don't share this assumption. For me, Hell is a permanent state of soul, something we do to ourselves. A form of [spiritual] self-mutilation or self-dismemberment, if you will. Just as a handicap does not have concrete existence (blindness does not exist in a real sense, rather it denotes the absence of sight) and was not "created", so Hell is not "created".

Originally posted by Starrman
Why make Satan?

I already told you, man--in Kabbalistic tradition, Satan is doing an unpleasant job--to test the Almighty's creation. In the same tradition, there were some five creations prior to this one--creations that He did not find good (bits of them are still to be found here and there, it seems).

Thames & Hudson publish a series of introductory books on spiritual topics (Dragons, Sacred Geometry, Robert Fludd...); the one on Kabbalah (called "Kabbalah"😉 is well worth investigating if you want a good overview of this fabulous tradition but aren't inclined to go too far into Talmudic fartlek. The author is Z'ev Ben Shimon Halevy (actually an English guy whose real name escapes me).

As regards Satan in literature, I love Neil Gaiman's portrayal of Lucifer in the Sandman series--the piano-playing prince of darkness who walks out of hell leaving it for the demons to squabble over and seeks his own destiny (albeit carrying with him his own private hell of pride).

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Your idea that God "creates" Hell reveals the underlying assumption that Hell is something external to us, separate from us, some kind of "gaol" that we're sent to as punishment after death. I don't share this assumption. For me, Hell is a permanent state of soul, something we do to ourselves. A form of [spiritual] self-mutilation or self ...[text shortened]... se, rather it denotes the absence of sight) and was not "created", so Hell is not "created".

That was never my assumption. Whether concrete or not, all things are god's creation are they not? God chose to use hell, in whatever form, as punishment, what hell actually is is relatively un-important.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I already told you, man--in Kabbalistic tradition, Satan is doing an unpleasant job--to test the Almighty's creation. In the same tradition, there were some five creations prior to this one--creations that He did not find good (bits ...[text shortened]... stiny (albeit carrying with him his own private hell of pride).

Okay, so let's say Satan is a test program if you will. Why create that test program if you already know that your platform is not only immune to the tests, but has also already correctly predicted every possible permutation of these tests itself?

Originally posted by Starrman
That was never my assumption. Whether concrete or not, all things are god's creation are they not? God chose to use hell, in whatever form, as punishment, what hell actually is is relatively un-important.

Whether concrete or not, all things are god's creation are they not?

No, they are not! That's the whole point of distinguising between things that have a real existence and those that do not (which Aristotle calls "privations" ). Only the former are created.

God chose to use hell, in whatever form, as punishment, what hell actually is is relatively un-important.

On the contrary, what Hell actually is (or isn't, to be precise) is the most critical piece of your argument. If Hell is not a state/place/punishment external to ourselves, then it makes no sense to speak of God "creating" Hell or "choosing to use" Hell as punishment. Hell is not like some prison you're sent to for your crimes; it's more like the feeling of being lost after you've deliberately and wilfully walked into a forest at night.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Whether concrete or not, all things are god's creation are they not?

No, they are not! That's the whole point of distinguising between things that have a real existence and those that do not (which Aristotle calls "priva ...[text shortened]... u've deliberately and wilfully walked into a forest at night.[/b][/b]

Okay, I think we need some clarification here.

Do you believe god created the universe?
If you do, do you believe that he was aware of the intrcacy of his creation down to subatomic particles?
If you do, you must also conceed that he created all things resulting from the interaction of these particles, conceptual (eg: human thought, the soul or even possibly the afterlife) or concrete (eg: stones) and that he had the knowledge of these interactions prior to creation. Therefore the concept of hell you talk about, though not concrete, is still the result of god's creating. In this sense I feel that the reality of hell, be it a concept or a place must surely be the result of god's inteded plan and execution of that plan. What the form of punishment is does not matter, it is the fact that the punishment is used which does.

If you do not believe that god created, for example, blindness, who did? And also, perhaps you could clarify whether you believe heaven, angels, devils etc. to be concrete or not and were they created by god?

Originally posted by FreaKinGenius
when you die you go to heaven. i thought that meant you become an angel when you die, if that is true then angels are no different than humans. but when i read this thread, you guys make it seem like angels and people that died and went to heaven are two different things.

Indeed. People, contrary to popular childhood understanding, do not become angels when they die. Angels are also created beings, and man was made 'a little lower than the angels'. Our powers and priveledges are not the same.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Your "red pill/blue pill" analogy implies angels are more than morally omniscient. For example, did Lucifer know he was going to fail? What possible impulse could cause him to do what he allegedly did if he knew absolutely all the consequences?

I say that if the Christians are correct, any being can only refuse to be in accordance with God's will if they lack knowledge of the consequences of their choice.

Lucifer knew that he wanted to be god! And was arrogant enough to think he could win the necessary battle. It was his pride, the ultimate sin that plagues us all, that gave him the nerve to go for it. Only God is omniscient. The idea that satan is God's equal in characteristics is simply not true (theologically speaking).

If he is familiar with the Bible, and he is, then he knows now what he is in for at the end, and is working hard to cause as much trouble as possible for his hated creator.

Originally posted by Darth Sponge
whether we actually have "free will" is a different discussion, but assume there is a Christian God who grants us the power to choose our destinies, then It knows from the outset that there will be many who choose not to worship, not to "properly humble themselves". if the Christian God is All-knowing, then the creation of "free will" is the creat ...[text shortened]... His image, then wouldn't it follow that we are also perfect, if at least in our souls?

No sir. Creating us with free will is not the same thing as creating or instigating evil, even with God's knowing all things. He can't help but know the future (I think He looks at all the parts of time at once, like we can look at all parts of a line a piece of paper.), but He also can't help but let us exercise our wills freely, and in our own time.

Please don't say that if He is all powerful then surely he can....etc. etc.
He has already made up His mind and did do what He wanted to do.

Originally posted by chinking58
[Please don't say that if He is all powerful then surely he can....etc. etc.
He has already made up His mind and did do what He wanted to do.[/b]

why not? your argument is limiting God's power. or you're saying that God chooses to limit his own power. "made up His mind"??? what do you mean? made up his mind that his creations that deviate from his intended plan must be burned in hellfire? like, "sorry, fellas. i'd let you off with a warning, but I decided a long time ago..." and you know, "once i make up my mind, i stick to it 100%."

god is not a very Big Old Man. if He is All Knowing and All Powerful, then why create imperfection and then punish it?

Originally posted by Starrman
Do you believe god created the universe?

Yes

If you do, do you believe that he was aware of the intrcacy of his creation down to subatomic particles?

Yes

If you do, you must also conceed that he created all things resulting from the interaction of these particles, conceptual (eg: human thought, the soul or even possibly the afterlife) or concrete (eg: stones) and that he had the knowledge of these interactions prior to creation. Therefore the concept of hell you talk about, though not concrete, is still the result of god's creating.

Yes, but the direct "creation" of Hell for any particular soul is the result of that person's own actions. While God knows a priori that a particular person will end up putting his soul in a state of Hell, the actual causing of Hell is the result of the person exercising his free will thus. In other words, the person has a choice - and cannot blame God for the mess he finds himself in.

In this sense I feel that the reality of hell, be it a concept or a place must surely be the result of god's inteded plan and execution of that plan. What the form of punishment is does not matter, it is the fact that the punishment is used which does.

To talk of it as "punishment" is to fall into the same trap again - conceptualise it as something external and imposed on us.

And also, perhaps you could clarify whether you believe heaven, angels, devils etc. to be concrete or not and were they created by god?

I believe that angels and devils are concrete beings; i.e. real. Heaven, like Hell, is a state of soul.

Originally posted by Darth Sponge
why not? your argument is limiting God's power. or you're saying that God chooses to limit his own power. "made up His mind"??? what do you mean? made up his mind that his creations that deviate from his intended plan must be burned in hellfire? like, "sorry, fellas. i'd let you off with a warning, but I decided a long time ago..." and you k ...[text shortened]... Man. if He is All Knowing and All Powerful, then why create imperfection and then punish it?

If god can not 'make up His mind', decide something and then do it, without being challenged by the absurd claim that His omnipotence means He can also do the opposite thing at the same time, then...all is lost. We would have a god who is actually impotent.

Therefore, I assert that God does 'limit his own power', if that's what you want to call it.

He makes things a certain way, and therefore, that's the way they are.
If you judge that your first child is old enough to cross the street alone, and yet he gets hit by a car j-walking, you don't regret that you gave him freedom. (maybe it was too soon, but for this analogy, let's say he was 16) You are saddened of course, but being a mature adult you will still someday empower your next child the same way.

You might put up all kinds of warning systems, flashing signs and lights, but if the kid is rebellious...then he is pretty much on his own in the end. You may send someone to say 'I am the way' but your kid properly has the freedom to ridicule and ignore him. What happens next is not in your hands. Unless you choose to take all freedom away, tie the kid up at the table in front of a plate of liver, onions and lima beans, he may choose to deny your instructions at will. And the consequences of crossing the street without heeding your good training are inherent in the system.