Secular society, and derision of religion

Originally posted by Halitose
Its a "turn the other cheek" thing.[/b]

can you explain Halitose?

Originally posted by Nicolaas
can you explain Halitose?

While, I don't deny that some Christians get a lot of stick because of their condescending attitude of superiority, there exists an element of Christians just being expected to turn the other cheek and not to retort to derision. Christianity has kinda become the punching bag of modern society, because its expected not to punch back.

Of course this is just one angle of a multifaceted problem.

Originally posted by sjeg
Ok: religion and public/private schools deserves a thread of its own.

Here I have simple questions:[b]

Should Christians tolerate slurs and inflammatory, hateful comments about their faith?

Why are such remarks acceptable in modern society, when the equivalent disrespect shown to either of the other monotheistic religions would cause outrage all round ...[text shortened]... What does that say about our society, and the obvious double standards this question highlights?

Should Christians tolerate slurs and inflammatory, hateful comments about their faith?[/b]

Absolutely. But only those that make their faith public. When someone airs their religion/faith they should expect others to counter them. A person's faith is a personal and very private matter. It's as private as our marriage, relationships, our careers, etc. These are personal choices that all people make. Waving them in front of the public and or trying to enforce privately held beliefs or views upon others will always open up a person to scorn, ridicule, or just simple opposition from someone holding opposing views.

That's as it should be.

Christians can't have it both ways. They can't act on their "command" to go out spreading the word and converting others without expecting opposition.

When a person makes their private life public, they deserve everything the public can heap upon them.

Originally posted by Halitose
While, I don't deny that some Christians get a lot of stick because of their condescending attitude of superiority, there exists an element of Christians just being expected to turn the other cheek and not to retort to derision. Christianity has kinda become the punching bag of modern society, because its expected not to punch back.

Of course this is just one angle of a multifaceted problem.

Isnt it just wrong? Be honest.

Originally posted by wib
[b]Should Christians tolerate slurs and inflammatory, hateful comments about their faith?[/b]

Absolutely. But only those that make their faith public. When someone airs their religion/faith they should expect others to counter them. A person's faith is a personal and very private matter. It's as private as our marriage, relationships, our careers, e ...[text shortened]... a person makes their private life public, they deserve everything the public can heap upon them.[/b]

I tend to agree with this.

There are many different kinds of Christianity, so I can't speak categorically; but the ones who go around saying things like "believe the way I do or burn in Hell forever", I think they are out line.

It's fine to explain religion to those who are interested, but I think we could all do with a little less fear mongering.

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
If a community has a secular school the religious parents are still able to excersise choice by opting to take their children to church. If a community has a religious school, non religious parents or adherents of other faiths have no choice; in most communities there is only one school and the choice to be faithless is denied.

In the UK the choice i ...[text shortened]... lution is not taught; this is in clear breach of the UK National Cirriculum yet nobody acts. FFS

If a community has a secular school the religious parents are still able to excersise choice by opting to take their children to church.

I believe I missed the meaning behind this the first time I read it,
but church and school are two different things now. One or two
hundred years ago, many church buildings performed both functions,
but they are for two different goals.
Kelly

Originally posted by Nicolaas
Isnt it just wrong? Be honest.

Even if derision of religion was wrong (which I personally think it is), I don't see how you can force people to be more tolerant. Methinks a good sense of humour is a good prerequisite here.

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
The detail of the way in which 'failing' schools are remodelled as 'Academies' in the UK contradicts what you say. As for your argument 'more times than not', how mant occasions of 'not' are acceptable? If it is your local school and your children involved would you accept imposition of a religion you don'rt brelieve in?

I'm not in the UK, so I can only speak to what I have been exposed
to here in the US. Which is that there are secular public schools that
are being lead down an atheistic view of the world, and there are
private schools, some of them religious in their foundations. As I said
before I don't care that all of them get state support. I do wish
the religious schools didn't, for only one reason, the state cannot
by it's very nature stay out of attempting to control whatever it
touches with a single penny of state money. If the state gives, it
can take away, if the state sets up rules it controls. There is really
no such thing as separation of state and religion, there is only
what the state allows bottom line. Religion is basically something
that people may care more about than the state itself, so for
that reason, it is dangerous to any government. The hearts and minds
of the people is the struggle when it comes to schools; building the
foundations of people’s world views.
Kelly

Originally posted by wib
[b]Should Christians tolerate slurs and inflammatory, hateful comments about their faith?[/b]

Absolutely. But only those that make their faith public. When someone airs their religion/faith they should expect others to counter them. A person's faith is a personal and very private matter. It's as private as our marriage, relationships, our careers, e ...[text shortened]... a person makes their private life public, they deserve everything the public can heap upon them.[/b]

I do agree that faith is intrinsically private.

But we are not talking about personal attacks on the faith of individuals, nor attacks on individuals themselves.

The issue was one of when good taste (which ideally would be showing a certain respect for all things holy, perhaps, even if they are not holy to the individual, as they are holy to others) fails to prevent an open insult to any major religion, should someone step in?

Why is Christianity fair game to people who wish to show great disrespect for the religion? Should this be tolerated?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not in the UK, so I can only speak to what I have been exposed
to here in the US. Which is that there are secular public schools that
are being lead down an atheistic view of the world, and there are
private schools, some of them religious in their foundations. As I said
before I don't care that all of them get state support. I do wish
the religi ...[text shortened]... ruggle when it comes to schools; building the
foundations of people’s world views.
Kelly

While I agree with you 100% in regards to the state, I also know the same thing can be said for most organized religions.

Take your post, replace the word state with a religion of your choice, and we've got the same problem.

It seems both entities, the governement and organized religion, want control over everything they can get.

Of those two evils I must choose the state. The reason is that at least with the state I have some say in how things are done. I have a vote. I can join grass roots political organizations, I can work for or against political candidates, etc. So I have some power over the state, even though it's a tiny amount if I work alone.

Religion on the other hand gives me no choices. It simply dictates.

Originally posted by sjeg
I do agree that faith is intrinsically private.

But we are not talking about personal attacks on the faith of individuals, nor attacks on individuals themselves.

The issue was one of when good taste (which ideally would be showing a certain respect for all things holy, perhaps, even if they are not holy to the individual, as they are holy to others) fails ...[text shortened]... air game to people who wish to show great disrespect for the religion? Should this be tolerated?

I see your point, but my answer is still yes. Criticism must be allowed and tolerated. Think about the problems involved in not allowing people to insult, criticize, or make fun of a religion.

How do we regulate something like that? Who determines what's an insult and what's warranted criticism? The Church? The congregation? Do we vote on it? What would the penalties be? The list just goes on and on.

As for good taste, I'm afraid that train left the station long ago. Taste has nothing to do with it.

People must be allowed to criticize anything and everything that has thrust itself upon the public. This goes to the very heart of free speech in the US.

Originally posted by sjeg
Well, I might conclude that it is acceptable in Western secular societies to criticise, or be offensive towards the Christian religion, but in no way is this acceptable of the other monotheistic religions, as this would be controversial, and un-P.C..

I am not so sure about this conclusion. Un-P.C. or not, anti-Semitism thrives in western secular societies. As for Muslims, don't forget they are widely blamed en masse for the crimes of al-Qaeda, al-Jihad, and other extremist groups. Does that count?

Originally posted by wib


How do we regulate something like that? Who determines what's an insult and what's warranted criticism?

I see your point too, and it is a strong one.

To the above question, I would suggest that these thing self-regulate, but with the exception of Christianity.

Again, if somebody declared that the were defecating on the Koran, or blowing their noses on the Talmud, then they would be ostracised in society. People would ask why hate (and not criticism) was being directed towards a religion that was nothing to do with the subject. That's fair enough, in my opinion, but PC comes into it too, as we see using the stated examples of this thread, Christianity appears to be open for such affronts, whicha re largely tolerated.

I understand the US freedom of speech forbids the spreading of hatred? Is this not applicable here?

Originally posted by wib
While I agree with you 100% in regards to the state, I also know the same thing can be said for most organized religions.

Take your post, replace the word state with a religion of your choice, and we've got the same problem.

It seems both entities, the governement and organized religion, want control over everything they can get it.

Of those two evi ...[text shortened]... amount if I work alone.

Religion on the other hand gives me no choices. It simply dictates.

I agree it can be used that way, and not only can be, has and is
being used exactly that way. I don't believe God intended our beliefs
to do that, no church power should be a ruling power. Our lead should
be God Himself, making all religion personal not some powerful
guy/gal running around telling us what we should do and not do what
we should give and not give. I don't see any difference in calling some
denominations cults than some little band of followers of some
guy who claims to be the new mouth piece of god of the day.

My view of ‘the’ church is those that belong to God and they are
scattered across the planet in and out of man made denominations.
They are those that love God and man through Jesus Christ, it isn't
any denomination that claims to have 'the' connection with God the
world has been waiting on. So any effort by man to control other men
be it through the state or religion I am suspect of, even if those
people who start a movement through religion or a new state power
have pure motives, yet the next generation may not. Which is why
I dislike many of the movements across the planet to protect us
from religious fanatics who think they need to kill to spread the
word of god or show they love the god they serve. Once this takes
hold it will not stop in my opinion with just those wide eyed killers.
Kelly

Originally posted by Algernon
I am not so sure about this conclusion. Un-P.C. or not, anti-Semitism thrives in western secular societies. As for Muslims, don't forget they are widely blamed en masse for the crimes of al-Qaeda, al-Jihad, and other extremist groups. Does that count?

Anti-Semitism (note should refer to both Arab and Jew, as Semites, but in usage does not, seems to be directed towards a race, if I am not mistaken. Anti-Muslim feeling seems to be toward people with extreme political ideas which require the destruction of the West.

Either way, neither is directed against the religion in question, nor what that religion hold to be holy or sacred.