Originally posted by KellyJayGod knew this prophet before the foundation of the world. The verse does not apply to the sixth months between conception and the end of legal abortion in the US. The political position that is most common among conservative Christians does not originate in the Bible, but within a cultural framework outside the text of Scripture.
[/i]I just showed you verse that tells us God was speaking about knowing
the prophet before he was born, didn't you get that? I'm not sure why you
you think surving outside of the womb matters with our laboratory support.
Kelly[/b]
True Christianity demands that we come to understand that which is Biblical, and distinguish it from what is cultural.
Is the spider in Edwards' sermon a Biblical image?
Originally posted by WulebgrEven your argument seems to not support your position, since we know
God knew this prophet before the foundation of the world. The verse does not apply to the sixth months between conception and the end of legal abortion in the US. The political position that is most common among conservative Christians does not originate in the Bible, but within a cultural framework outside the text of Scripture.
True Christianity demands ...[text shortened]... d distinguish it from what is cultural.
Is the spider in Edwards' sermon a Biblical image?
according to scripture that God forms us in our mother's wombs, that
God has a purpose for us...why do you feel it is okay to say some of
us can be killed if you do it at just the right time?
Kelly
Originally posted by WulebgrIf you have a point of he sermon you want to discuss it would be
God knew this prophet before the foundation of the world. The verse does not apply to the sixth months between conception and the end of legal abortion in the US. The political position that is most common among conservative Christians does not originate in the Bible, but within a cultural framework outside the text of Scripture.
True Christianity demands ...[text shortened]... d distinguish it from what is cultural.
Is the spider in Edwards' sermon a Biblical image?
helpful to post that part of it. I'll look it up later I don't remember
the spider off the top of my head.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe 'life begins at conception' thing needs to be addressed. The verse in question speaks only of god's foreknowledge of a certain man's life. It is silent on when life actually begins.
Can you give me something more to work with besides saying it does
not address it at all, in your view what needs addressed?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThat is really stretching it with both claims.
To me it suggests that our lives all have purpose, and even in the
womb we are who we are.
Kelly
The fact that God knew of someone important - a prophet - before he he was conceived in no way implies that our lives all have a purpose. It certainly doesn't tell us anything about whether it abortion is right or wrong. If anything, Gods knowledge of the future implies that an abortion is the purpose of an aborted fetus. Unless you now claim that God also knows all alternate futures and our 'true purpose' may not be realized. But such a conclusion can certainly not be drawn from that verse.
The second claim, that in the womb, we are who we are, is also questionable. I think we all see the connection between a fetus and the adult human it becomes, but are they identical? Of course not.
Does the fetus have a soul? The verse does not answer that.
Is it wrong to kill the fetus? The verse does not answer that.
Further the verse it somewhat poetic and I rather suspect it is not in any way trying to make statements about fetus' but rather saying that God either plans ahead or knows the future. But even that may be mere poetical licence. The real message to the prophet was: you are part of a bigger plan than you may realize.
In fact it would be acceptable for even a human to use nearly the exact same words without any fore knowledge.Lets suppose I decide my son will take over the world. I then find a woman, have a child, bring him up to be a dictator etc and when he finally achieves my dream I may say something almost identical to that verse. It would be poetic, but not 'wrong'.
Originally posted by SwissGambitSilent, I think not God addressed that the man who He was talking
The 'life begins at conception' thing needs to be addressed. The verse in question speaks only of god's foreknowledge of a certain man's life. It is silent on when life actually begins.
to had a beginning where God knew him. You think because that
passage didn't address being a teenager that some how he never
was? We all go through stages of development, and God knows us
where ever we are in the process. You want to say one part of our
devolopment wasn't as important as that part that occurs after
birth, I'd have to say you are the one with the burden of proof not I.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayWhen God says "I knew you", he's referring to Jeremiah, the prophet; not Jeremiah, the fetus. That's why he specifically mentions his calling.
Silent, I think not God addressed that the man who He was talking
to had a beginning where God knew him. You think because that
passage didn't address being a teenager that some how he never
was? We all go through stages of development, and God knows us
where ever we are in the process. You want to say one part of our
devolopment wasn't as important as ...[text shortened]... t occurs after
birth, I'd have to say you are the one with the burden of proof not I.
Kelly
If the verse was intended to claim that God knows fetuses, then why did God mention that he knew him BEFORE conception?
Originally posted by KellyJayOriginally posted by Wulebgr
If you have a point of he sermon you want to discuss it would be
helpful to post that part of it. I'll look it up later I don't remember
the spider off the top of my head.
Kelly
One of the strongest statements of the human condition ever penned came from a sermon delivered in 1741 in Enfield, Connecticut.
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.
Jonathan Edwards
Originally posted by KellyJayWe also know according to the text that breath is life. You are not taking a life if you prevent that first breath.
Even your argument seems to not support your position, since we know
according to scripture that God forms us in our mother's wombs, that
God has a purpose for us...why do you feel it is okay to say some of
us can be killed if you do it at just the right time?
Kelly
Of course, some creative interpretations of the in-womb formation by God have been deployed to condemn the use of condoms. And the scene with Onan would seem to suggest that spilling one's seed outside a woman is a capital crime, perhaps rendering masturbation criminal.
Creative exegesis can support all sorts of notions, and it is such creativity that underlies the case against abortion. So far, your proof texts are weak, and open to more natural readings that leave them silent on the issue that has hijacked this thread concerning spiders and the Creator as a boy that likes to kill creepy-crawlers.
Originally posted by SwissGambitJeremiah the prophet was known by God, God knew that prophet all
When God says "I knew you", he's referring to Jeremiah, the prophet; not Jeremiah, the fetus. That's why he specifically mentions his calling.
If the verse was intended to claim that God knows fetuses, then why did God mention that he knew him BEFORE conception?
the way through the prophets life, which included the time spent in
the womb.
Kelly
Originally posted by WulebgrYou want to play with the lives of people God owns, that is your
We also know according to the text that breath is life. You are not taking a life if you prevent that first breath.
Of course, some creative interpretations of the in-womb formation by God have been deployed to condemn the use of condoms. And the scene with Onan would seem to suggest that spilling one's seed outside a woman is a capital crime, perhaps ren ...[text shortened]... ked this thread concerning spiders and the Creator as a boy that likes to kill creepy-crawlers.
business and God's. We know that the first human life Adam was
breathed into, from that point on, life was in the human condition I
think the lives lost through abortion, were just that lives lost. I don't
see the seed on the ground as a capital crime, I see Onan as someone
who was supposed to live up to their responsibilities and didn't.
Kelly
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJaySeems that you are selective concerning when you draw out the implications in the text one way, and when you extend them another direction.
You want to play with the lives of people God owns, that is your
business and God's. We know that the first human life Adam was
breathed into, from that point on, life was in the human condition I
think the lives lost through abortion, were just that lives lost. I don't
see the seed on the ground as a capital crime, I see Onan as someone
who was supposed to live up to their responsibilities and didn't.
Kelly
From God knowing forming Jeremiah in the womb, we are all formed thus. Onan employed coitus interruptus, and you see only the general issue of responsibility. I think that Onan was perfectly willing to enjoy carnal pleasures, but unwilling to give the wife of his deceased brother the pleasure she wanted (pregnancy), so he was struck down.
Originally posted by SwissGambiti think this passage clearly puts things in context
When God says "I knew you", he's referring to Jeremiah, the prophet; not Jeremiah, the fetus. That's why he specifically mentions his calling.
If the verse was intended to claim that God knows fetuses, then why did God mention that he knew him BEFORE conception?
(Psalm 139:13-16) . . .For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.
Originally posted by WulebgrThe spider I believe was something that Edwards drew up to make
God knew this prophet before the foundation of the world. The verse does not apply to the sixth months between conception and the end of legal abortion in the US. The political position that is most common among conservative Christians does not originate in the Bible, but within a cultural framework outside the text of Scripture.
True Christianity demands ...[text shortened]... d distinguish it from what is cultural.
Is the spider in Edwards' sermon a Biblical image?
a point. It was a powerful point too.
Kelly