Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe problem with Kelly's argument isn't so much his view of the status FMF's past Christianity (like you say, it is possible he is correct, although it would only be guesswork on his part). The problem is how he defines being an ex-Christian. By his definition, only someone who is certain that they had a relationship with Jesus/God, and still chooses to leave Christianity, is considered an ex-Christian. This definition basically defines ex-Christians out of existence, and I doubt he can give a single example of an ex-Christian (using his definition).
but its a possibility that FMF was simply masquerading as a Christian.
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-Removed-I think his problem is that, to him, your scenario reduces Christianity to a belief, while for Kelly it is a certainty. For him to accept your scenario means that he must accept that people can be mistaken about having a relationship with Jesus/God, and accepting this would mean accepting that he might be wrong about his own "relationship" with Jesus/God.
Originally posted by Rajk999I've maintained this my whole Christian life! You are the one that seems to
When did you come to this realization, if you dont mind me asking? Some years ago you were among the supporters of OSAS ie a 'born again' Christian cannot lose his salvation.
think otherwise, even thought I have told you over and over we agree on
this point!
Kelly
Originally posted by PatNovakJesus said, you must be born again! It is a Spiritual transformation, all that
The problem with Kelly's argument isn't so much his view of the status FMF's past Christianity (like you say, it is possible he is correct, although it would only be guesswork on his part). The problem is how he defines being an ex-Christian. By his definition, only someone who is certain that they had a relationship with Jesus/God, and still chooses to lea ...[text shortened]... f existence, and I doubt he can give a single example of an ex-Christian (using his definition).
FMF has talked about is losing his faith, who cares about being wrong about
a belief, the reality in your life is either Jesus Christ or not. If all you do is
have a warm and fuzzy and know some doctrine, that does not mean you
have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior that comes from God not man,
you cannot gin up a relationship with God, it has be on God's terms not
ours, and with Christians we know that Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth,
and the Life no comes to God except through me. If FMF never had that,
and I point out he has never made that claim, he never had it to lose it.
Kelly
-Removed-FMF's fate with respect to Jesus Christ isn't a good one, no matter if he did
know Christ or never did, both positions lead him to the same place! I'm not
sure what you are attempting to prove that he can take Christ then reject
Him and still be saved. If so I suggest you look long and hard at all the
warnings in scripture on how God has rejected people.
We are admonished to walk uprightly with God. It is a great thing God has
done for us, it is not cheap grace! We cannot earn God's mercy, we are not
at all to treat it as a means to sin willfully before God, then demand that He
must accept us sin and all.
If FMF did know Christ, well that is one thing, if he didn't then I believe he
still has a shot with God, because he has never really tasted the goodness
and grace of God almighty!
Kelly
Hebrews 12:
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
Originally posted by KellyJaySo, can you give me an example (past or present) of an individual that you believe is/was an ex-Christian?
Jesus said, you must be born again! It is a Spiritual transformation, all that
FMF has talked about is losing his faith, who cares about being wrong about
a belief, the reality in your life is either Jesus Christ or not. If all you do is
have a warm and fuzzy and know some doctrine, that does not mean you
have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior that c ...[text shortened]... ever had that,
and I point out he has never made that claim, he never had it to lose it.
Kelly
PatNovak: So, can you give me an example (past or present) of an individual that you believe is/was an ex-Christian?As PatNovak said: "[KellyJay's] definition basically defines ex-Christians out of existence, and I doubt he can give a single example of an ex-Christian (using his definition)."
Originally posted by KellyJay
Not off the top of my head.
KellyJay, would you go so far as to suggest that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian?
Originally posted by FMFNo, I would not say that! I will say that the number of people who find
As PatNovak said: "[KellyJay's] definition basically defines ex-Christians out of existence, and I doubt he can give a single example of an ex-Christian (using his definition)."
KellyJay, would you go so far as to suggest that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian?
the Lord is small by comparison of those that don't. The percentage of
those that don't that started walking with God but fell away, difficult
to say how large that is. You also have those that claim to be, but instead
are wolves in sheep clothing that never knew God, they could be
looked at as some that fell away by those that believed them.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI accept that you believe these things. I accept your claim that you are a Christian. I used to believe the same sort of things ["walking with God" etc.] as you do. Let's not forget, twenty years ago, we were both Christians ~ or, if you prefer it, twenty years ago, we both believed ourselves to be Christians.
No, I would not say that! I will say that the number of people who find
the Lord is small by comparison of those that don't. The percentage of
those that don't that started walking with God but fell away, difficult
to say how large that is. You also have those that claim to be, but instead
are wolves in sheep clothing that never knew God, they could be
looked at as some that fell away by those that believed them.
Originally posted by FMFI can agree to that!
I accept that you believe these things. I accept your claim that you are a Christian. I used to believe the same sort of things ["walking with God" etc.] as you do. Let's not forget, twenty years ago, we were both Christians ~ or, if you prefer it, twenty years ago, we both believed ourselves to be Christians.
Kelly
-Removed-The bottom line question is are they right with God, the way God wants
them to be right with God? You can have someone completely sold out
but on their own terms before God, not through Jesus Christ, they are
not a Christian. If you have someone working their way into heaven, and
not relying on Jesus' Christ for their salvation they are not saved, they
are working towards an end.
I am saying so you don't have to repeat yourself until you get my beliefs
down that someone can have a life altering experience with Jesus Christ,
and later turn due to lust, grief, something that makes them walk away.
This of course will not be without a struggle, because I do not for a
second believe God will not attempt to bring them around, but bottom
line I do not believe God will force them into something aganist their
will.
Kelly