Spectators in Hell

Originally posted by Great King Rat
But then you can't really blame anyone for believing it, right?

I mean, it says so right there in your holy book.

How much is that book worth if you're just going to ignore or re-explain every phrase in that book that you happen to dislike?

Which part of it is God's word and which isn't? How do you decide? Is God a reality or is it no more than what you would like to be reality?

"But then you can't really blame anyone for believing it, right?"
sure you can. it is actually quite easy to blame someone believing in this atrocity.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
But then you can't really blame anyone for believing it, right?

I mean, it says so right there in your holy book.

How much is that book worth if you're just going to ignore or re-explain every phrase in that book that you happen to dislike?

Which part of it is God's word and which isn't? How do you decide? Is God a reality or is it no more than what you would like to be reality?

I think some Christians have lost moral perspective and swallowed whatever their parents or church teachers have taught them. The doctrine of eternal hell is a clear pivot point between what is absolutely morally wrong and what is symbolic in the Bible.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Do you believe that there will be a human who will be the AntiChrist, what Revelation calls the Beast, the "abomination of desolation"? What about the "False Prophet", that there will be a "man of the cloth" who will assist in forcing man to submit to and worship the Beast?

The Bible says there will be many Antichrists. How do I tell them one from another? Some people will swallow a camel and choke on a gnat; I mean that when there is ambiguity, symbolism or contradictory evidence, it is a good place to start by deciding what one does NOT believe. I am a Christian and have been for about 30 years, I don't claim to be good or holy or anything like that, but I do know that the God who I have believed in and has made himself know to me would not do that to a human being no matter what they had done in life. It's wrong, it's so wrong it's bleedin' obvious it's wrong.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
in the religion that prides itself on love and forgiveness, that's obviously the reason it isn't literal.

What utter nonsense. Just because a religion says of itself that it prides love and forgiveness doesn't mean we should pretend that it doesn't also say nasty stuff.

Everyone knows most religions are full of contradictions. This is just one of many examples.

Besides, doesn't god work in mysterious ways? Who are you to discard the words of god?

It all very much seems like a pick-and-choose religion to me. "Yes, The Bible is the word of god, except when I don't like the most logical conclusion. Then I just toss it aside."

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"But then you can't really blame anyone for believing it, right?"
sure you can. it is actually quite easy to blame someone believing in this atrocity.

No, you can blame someone for loving god while also believing he does such atrocities. You can't blame someone for simply believing it. The fact that the two often go hand in hand is not relevant.

I believe Hitler (say "Godwin" once and I'll hunt you down) did horrible things. Doesn't make me a bad person. Only when I approve of those horrible things do I become a bad person.

Originally posted by divegeester
The Bible says there will be many Antichrists. How do I tell them one from another? Some people will swallow a camel and choke on a gnat; I mean that when there is ambiguity, symbolism or contradictory evidence, it is a good place to start by deciding what one does NOT believe. I am a Christian and have been for about 30 years, I don't claim to be good ...[text shortened]... matter what they had done in life. It's wrong, it's so wrong it's bleedin' obvious it's wrong.

From my atheistic perspective it's also wrong for an almight god to not intervene when natural disasters happen or a father rapes his child, yet you believe that, right?

How does that not make you a horrible person, like you seem to think of people like Hinds and Mr.-I-Love-Obama?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
What utter nonsense. Just because a religion says of itself that it prides love and forgiveness doesn't mean we should pretend that it doesn't also say nasty stuff.

Everyone knows most religions are full of contradictions. This is just one of many examples.

Besides, doesn't god work in mysterious ways? Who are you to discard the words of god?
...[text shortened]... e word of god, except when I don't like the most logical conclusion. Then I just toss it aside."

EDIT: i argued the following with the premise you believe the crap in the bible and approve it. disregard the post.

"What utter nonsense. Just because a religion says of itself that it prides love and forgiveness doesn't mean we should pretend that it doesn't also say nasty stuff."
you don't see any contradiction? love and compassion on one hand and brutal torture on the other aren't mutually exclusive?

"Everyone knows most religions are full of contradictions."
therefore at least one issue must be false. which is it? is christianity love? or is it eternal torture?

"Besides, doesn't god work in mysterious ways? Who are you to discard the words of god?"
you mean the words of a senile old man who tripped balls that got into the bible because a council of other men decided to include those words and not others? those words?

"It all very much seems like a pick-and-choose religion to me. "Yes, The Bible is the word of god, except when I don't like the most logical conclusion. Then I just toss it aside.""
yes. when presented with an ice cream, you don't have to swallow the spoon, the table and the turd outside the restaurant as well. you get to choose what to believe. because you are a human, with reason, not a fungus.

if christianity is a religion of love and compassion, obviously the horrible crap from the bible is untrue, left there for feudals to better control the masses.
if christianity is not a religion of love and compassion and the horrible crap from the bible is true, it doesn't deserve to be a part of.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
EDIT: i argued the following with the premise you believe the crap in the bible and approve it. disregard the post.

"What utter nonsense. Just because a religion says of itself that it prides love and forgiveness doesn't mean we should pretend that it doesn't also say nasty stuff."
you don't see any contradiction? love and compassion on one hand and br ...[text shortened]... and compassion and the horrible crap from the bible is true, it doesn't deserve to be a part of.

I do not see the contradiction. Doesn't it make sense that an eternal Being like God, who is good and holy and gives eternal life to the righteous, would also dispense justice against evil that is also eternal?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
No, you can blame someone for loving god while also believing he does such atrocities. You can't blame someone for simply believing it. The fact that the two often go hand in hand is not relevant.

I believe Hitler (say "Godwin" once and I'll hunt you down) did horrible things. Doesn't make me a bad person. Only when I approve of those horrible things do I become a bad person.

in the case of religious believers, believing one thing and approving it is quite often the same thing.


not really a valid argument, but i have yet to see a theist that believes the bible is 100% true and also condemn the atrocities described there. take all the yecs in this forum, do you know of any of them that condemns the genocide that was noah's flood? any who realizes the conquest of canaan as described in the bible was a genocide? someone who shows even a minor discomfort at what lot did right before the destruction of Sodom?

i have no problem with any of those. without evidence towards either side, i chose to believe what makes me happy: a just and loving god exists. i lack belief in anything that contradicts this notion. (any other unproven claims, of course)

Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not see the contradiction. Doesn't it make sense that an eternal Being like God, who is good and holy and gives eternal life to the righteous, would also dispense justice against evil that is also eternal?

an atheist is not evil. and certainly not eternal.

where is the justice in punishing a kind atheist, or muslim, or catholic while letting a serial killer who repented enter heaven? one was a sinner for a finite amount of time, gets an eternity of punishment. the other was a much worse sinner for the same time, repented 1 year before his death, gets an eternity of heaven.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
in the case of religious believers, believing one thing and approving it is quite often the same thing.


not really a valid argument, but i have yet to see a theist that believes the bible is 100% true and also condemn the atrocities described there. take all the yecs in this forum, do you know of any of them that condemns the genocide that was noah's ...[text shortened]... . i lack belief in anything that contradicts this notion. (any other unproven claims, of course)

We believe those people were evil and they needed to be destroyed in order to prevent contamination. But some of the Israelites believed like you and spared some of the enemy and it resulted in later contamination of their faith.

Originally posted by divegeester
The Bible says there will be many Antichrists. How do I tell them one from another? Some people will swallow a camel and choke on a gnat; I mean that when there is ambiguity, symbolism or contradictory evidence, it is a good place to start by deciding what one does NOT believe. I am a Christian and have been for about 30 years, I don't claim to be good ...[text shortened]... matter what they had done in life. It's wrong, it's so wrong it's bleedin' obvious it's wrong.

Come on, I know that you know what I am talking about here. Don't be like one of these closed-minded people who claim that "if it isn't in the Bible, then it's not true" or some such crap.

I'm not speaking of "antichrists" here (small a). Anyone who is "against Christ" could be an "antichrist". That's not what I am speaking about. I mean THE AntiChrist, the man described as "the Beast", or the "abomination of desolation" in Revelation. Does he, or will he, exist? Will he act as described in Revelation? Will he have a "mark" that will make all who take it condemned?

Yes, there is a time and place to say what one does not believe. But there is also a time to confess with one's mouth exactly what one DOES believe. And no, lying about it to "have it both ways" is NOT an option.

Originally posted by RJHinds
We believe those people were evil and they needed to be destroyed in order to prevent contamination. But some of the Israelites believed like you and spared some of the enemy and it resulted in later contamination of their faith.

"We believe those people were evil and they needed to be destroyed in order to prevent contamination."
thanks for clearing this for the royal rat. this is what i meant when i said i am blaming people like you who believe this crap. this belief makes you a bad person. a horrible person. even if the people from the noah's flood are fictitious. because noah's flood never happened. you are still a bad person.


"But some of the Israelites believed like you and spared some of the enemy and it resulted in later contamination of their faith."
yep. better to kill them all. that's exactly what jesus said : "kill all who don't believe in the same things as you do, else you will be contaminated"

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
EDIT: i argued the following with the premise you believe the crap in the bible and approve it. disregard the post.

"What utter nonsense. Just because a religion says of itself that it prides love and forgiveness doesn't mean we should pretend that it doesn't also say nasty stuff."
you don't see any contradiction? love and compassion on one hand and br ...[text shortened]... and compassion and the horrible crap from the bible is true, it doesn't deserve to be a part of.

Comparing man to God or God to man is nonsensical and makes all your points here moot.

You also maintain that man has the ability to reason and then you spout off two "absolutes" that have zero truth.

Thank you for playing. Feel free to try again.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i chose to believe what makes me happy. i lack belief in anything that contradicts this notion.

Yeah, good luck with that.