01 Oct '12 14:32>
Originally posted by robbie carrobieVeneration is for religionists.
yes FMF what version do you venerate?
Originally posted by stellspalfieYou've missed the point completely, there is nothing under Heaven and Earth
So I take it from your reply you think people who stop believing in christ due to mental health issues also never really had a relationship with christ in the first place?
I guess this also means that people with mental disabilities that stop them from understanding religion or the concept of god do not have a relationship with jesus.
Shall I pop ...[text shortened]... but im not 100% sure. Anybody who says they are 100% sure god exists are either lying or stupid.
Originally posted by KellyJayWell if we stop believing in a certain set of religious tenets then the 'separation' you mention is of course possible, as I have made clear. When you say "there is nothing under Heaven and Earth that can separate us from God" you are just talking about how you yourself feel now. You are not really talking about anyone else other than yourself.
You've missed the point completely, there is nothing under Heaven and Earth that can separate us from God.
Originally posted by FMFNo, I'm talking about a faithful God who promised never to leave us or forsake us.
Well if we stop believing in a certain set of religious tenets then the 'separation' you mention is of course possible, as I have made clear. When you say "there is nothing under Heaven and Earth that can separate us from God" you are just talking about how you yourself feel now. You are not really talking about anyone else other than yourself.
Originally posted by KellyJayI did believe I knew him. Just as you believe you know him. You still believe you know him. I do not. I have made this clear.
No, I'm talking about a faithful God who promised never to leave us or forsake us.
I think you'd known that if you ever actually knew Him.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritIt is a personal relationship with the same God, and God's traits are quite plain,
if it's a personal relationship, no one else will know that god you think you know.
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you keep saying. You keep talking about yourself under the guise of talking about me. We get it; you don't think you are ever going to lose your faith.
Well the God I know is faithful in this life, if the one you knew wasn't than you never knew the God I know.
Originally posted by KellyJayI have said nothing about "not finding him faithful and true". Therefore your assertions about what I did believe and did not believe, in terms of this, have no traction or relevance. You need to stop talking indirectly about how strong you think your faith is. How strong you personally think your own faith is now has absolutely nothing to do with what my faith used to be. My loss of faith and the faith you currently have are unrelated topics - or, least, not related in the way you are trying to make out.
So when someone says they knew Him and didn't find Him faithful and true than whatever god they claimed they knew is not the same one I know and has made Himself availble to all.
Originally posted by stellspalfieYour argument falls down the instant you assert that it is I who made a claim. FMF said he had a relationship with God. This cannot be true if God does not exist. Therefore, FMF was actually claiming that God exists.
His argument doesnt contradict and is perfectly logical. The problem lies with the irrational belief that god is 100% real. Your view point only has any credence if god defiantly exists, as not one person on the planet is 100% sure, your argument falls down. If you think you know for a fact that god exists then you are throwing logic out of the window a ...[text shortened]... ing other peoples logic. Remember you only 'think' god exists, you do not 'know' god exists.
Originally posted by sumydidOf course I used to claim that the Christian version of God exists. That has been central to this discussion all along. I had a "relationship" based on the belief - the certainty - that I felt at that time.
Your argument falls down the instant you assert that it is I who made a claim. FMF said he had a relationship with God. This cannot be true if God does not exist. Therefore, FMF was actually claiming that God exists.
Originally posted by sumydidThis has been what I have contended all along. Twenty years ago, my relationship/belief/certainty would have been more or less what yours and KellyJay's STILL is; but, of course, mine no longer is.
Anyway, I think we are beyond that now, since I see FMF saying he believed he had a relationship with God just as we Christians believe we have a relationship with God. That is a much more logical way of putting it. .
Originally posted by sumydidI have not asserted that God does not exist. Have you been following this discussion at all? I have said that I do not think God has revealed himself to people like you and KellyJay [I used to think he had], and that neither of you know what 'God's instructions' are.
FMF disagrees that I have a relationship with God, under the assertion that God doesn't exist.
Originally posted by FMFOk, well, I obviously disagree and neither one of us can prove each other wrong.
This has been what I have contended all along. Twenty years ago, my relationship/belief/certainty would have been more or less what yours and KellyJay's STILL is; but, of course, mine no longer is.