Spiritual Yard Sale

Originally posted by KellyJay
Either what you had was not so important or it was, you don't get to say both, one is either real or the other is they both cannot be true for anyone.

What I "get to say" is that I used to have a relationship with the Christian version of God and now I do not. Your theory that this somehow cannot happen has been scuppered by what you have learned from talking to me.

Originally posted by FMF
You've made it quite clear you do not believe me. But your retrospective declarations about what my relationship with God have no impact on on what that relationship was. I find it interesting that you are so adamant about it. You almost sound like you're kind of over compensating.

Not over compensating for anything, I also don't recall calling you a liar either.
I've talked about things not being true or lies, but if you would point out to me
where I thought you were a liar I'd be grateful.

For the record, I do not think of you like that! I do disagree with you completely
on this matter, but feel your giving me your honest answers as far as your concern.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not over compensating for anything, I also don't recall calling you a liar either.
I've talked about things not being true or lies, but if you would point out to me
where I thought you were a liar I'd be grateful.

For the record, I do not think of you like that! I do disagree with you completely
on this matter, but feel your giving me your honest answers as far as your concern.
Kelly

As far as I can tell, we agree that if you were to apply the same rhetorical device to yourself that you apply to me, that is to say, retrospective denial of one's Christianity because the belief was lost, then we do not yet know for sure that you are a Christian now. We agree on this right?

Originally posted by FMF
What I "get to say" is that I used to have a relationship with the Christian version of God and now I do not. Your theory that this somehow cannot happen has been scuppered by what you have learned from talking to me.

What is the "Christian version of God?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What is the "Christian version of God?

I am still a theist, as you know, but do not see God through the prism of Christianity anymore.

Originally posted by sumydid
[b]FMF: Offering a poor analogy that is a far cry from what we're talking about and then telling it's a far cry from what we are talking about, is not going to work with me.

Obviously nothing works with you, not even someone pointing out the fact that your argument contradicts itself.

You can't know someone who never existed. Period. You can stub ...[text shortened]... er admit a mistake."

Civilized and fruitful debate is not possible with such a mindset.[/b]

His argument doesnt contradict and is perfectly logical. The problem lies with the irrational belief that god is 100% real. Your view point only has any credence if god defiantly exists, as not one person on the planet is 100% sure, your argument falls down. If you think you know for a fact that god exists then you are throwing logic out of the window and should stop querying other peoples logic. Remember you only 'think' god exists, you do not 'know' god exists.

Originally posted by FMF
As far as I can tell, we agree that if you were to apply the same rhetorical device to yourself that you apply to me, that is to say, retrospective denial of one's Christianity because the belief was lost, then we do not yet know for sure that you are a Christian now. We agree on this right?

I don't get your "belief" was lost, did you misplace it, did someone steal it? I again
trust that God knows how to keep His own, and those that deny Him are not His.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
I am still a theist, as you know, but do not see God through the prism of Christianity anymore.

Yea, I got that. So what brought about this transformation from where Jesus Christ
was the Son of the living God who died for your sins to He is just someone else's
version of whatever God is to you now?

If you say its personal, I'll not ask again....not trying to put you on the spot.
Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
His argument doesnt contradict and is perfectly logical. The problem lies with the irrational belief that god is 100% real. Your view point only has any credence if god defiantly exists, as not one person on the planet is 100% sure, your argument falls down. If you think you know for a fact that god exists then you are throwing logic out of the window a ...[text shortened]... ing other peoples logic. Remember you only 'think' god exists, you do not 'know' god exists.

Well that is the point isn't it, that God is real and being real would mean 100% not
just 97.5432% or any other percentage. The issue I have is you cannot claim A as
knowing someone, than later denying that someone without there being either an
issue with the first claim or the second. A relationship cannot had with someone
who isn't real, so to claim you had one with someone, than later denying it seems
to suggest one or the other wasn't 'real' or the truth of the matter. You can make
the claim you were wrong about one or the other it doesn't matter which, but
both cannot be true.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well that is the point isn't it, that God is real and being real would mean 100% not
just 97.5432% or any other percentage. The issue I have is you cannot claim A as
knowing someone, than later denying that someone without there being either an
issue with the first claim or the second. A relationship cannot had with someone
who isn't real, so to claim y ...[text shortened]... ere wrong about one or the other it doesn't matter which, but
both cannot be true.
Kelly

There are a few issues here. Firstly I think its pretty small minded to suggest that people who loose faith never knew god in the first place. I would imagine its highly offensive to people who's life experiences have caused them to loose faith, In my opinion every christian on this planet under the right circumstances would loose faith.
How do people who suffer from mental illnesses fit into your neat black and white view of things. Are you saying that a person who believes in Christ but at some point suffers from a deep depression in which they loose faith in God and life, never knew Christ. There are numerous mental conditions that can develop that would impair a person capacity to have a relationship with Christ.

Another problem is your claim that God defiantly exists. This is an illogical statement. As much as you jump up and down saying he does. The cold hard facts are that you are not 100% sure. There is not one thing you can do or say or feel that proves it, so it would be stupid to say you know for sure. You only 'think' god exists, fact.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
There are a few issues here. Firstly I think its pretty small minded to suggest that people who loose faith never knew god in the first place. I would imagine its highly offensive to people who's life experiences have caused them to loose faith, In my opinion every christian on this planet under the right circumstances would loose faith.
How do people ...[text shortened]... proves it, so it would be stupid to say you know for sure. You only 'think' god exists, fact.

For one, I'm not talking about losing faith, I've been talking about having a
relationship with God through Jesus Christ. God knows how to hold on to His own.
This does NOT mean that people will not struggle, but one thing they can and
should know is that God has promised to never leave us or forsake us. This means
that no matter what, God is faithful to us and we can trust Him. Pain and suffering
are a huge part of life, so is pleasure and joy and both can screw up a person.

Experiences cannot take one from God, no one can take someone out of God's
hands, neither life, death, or any power under heaven and earth can do that. Your
acting like our walk with God is only dependent upon our wills nothing more, God
is greater. You can lose out if you've never given you life to God yet believed He
is real, but someone who has given God their lives, God takes very seriously.

Yes, I believe God is real I have faith He is real, I cannot prove it, it is a matter of
faith.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
For one, I'm not talking about losing faith, I've been talking about having a
relationship with God through Jesus Christ. God knows how to hold on to His own.
This does NOT mean that people will not struggle, but one thing they can and
should know is that God has promised to never leave us or forsake us. This means
that no matter what, God is faithful t ...[text shortened]... eve God is real I have faith He is real, I cannot prove it, it is a matter of
faith.
Kelly

So I take it from your reply you think people who stop believing in christ due to mental health issues also never really had a relationship with christ in the first place?

I guess this also means that people with mental disabilities that stop them from understanding religion or the concept of god do not have a relationship with jesus.

Shall I pop down the street and tell the chrstian lady with the brain damaged child that her son doesnt have a relationship with christ because her son cant believe in christ?


Exactly you have faith he exists, that is not the same as 100%. I have faith that when I catch a flight its not going to crash but im not 100% sure. Anybody who says they are 100% sure god exists are either lying or stupid.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So what brought about this transformation from where Jesus Christ
was the Son of the living God who died for your sins to He is just someone else's
version of whatever God is to you now?

I don't believe it anymore. Should I continue to assert that Jesus Christ was the Son of the living God who died for my sins if I don't believe it? That wouldn't be right.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
There are a few issues here. Firstly I think its pretty small minded to suggest that people who loose faith never knew god in the first place.

I reckon, rather than a symptom of small mindedness, per se, these assertions by KellyJay and sumydid, are not about me but are in fact about them. It's about them illustrating how certain they are. Christians are often bickering with each other and denouncing each other for not being True Christians. Plenty of it goes on on this forum. It strikes me as a kind chest beating. They are asserting that they are bigger, better, deeper, more holy, more sure, more convinced, more long lasting, more forever, more Christian etc. etc. Then an ex-Christan pops up and says he doesn't believe it, and the chest beating begins with renewed self-regarding earnest. Chest hath no fury-of-beating like after a religionist and his/her doctrine is scorned! 😵

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yea, I got that. So what brought about this transformation from where Jesus Christ
was the Son of the living God who died for your sins to He is just someone else's
version of whatever God is to you now?

If you say its personal, I'll not ask again....not trying to put you on the spot.
Kelly

yes FMF what version do you venerate?