01 Oct 12
Originally posted by KellyJayI stopped subscribing to the tenets of faith that lead to and supported the "relationship with God" that we have been discussing.
I don't understand what you just said, could you say it in a different way please, not trying to trap you, I really don't get it.
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by FMFYet, if you actually had a relationship with God wouldn't that transcend all the
I stopped subscribing to the tenets of faith that lead to and supported the "relationship with God" that we have been discussing.
tenets, doubts, fears, joys, and so on life had to offer? Seriously, with God who
promised never to leave us or forsake us in this life when the good and bad come
our way what could get between the two of you if what you professed was true
what back then? If this life is all there is what a pile, let us eat, drink, and be
merry for tomorrow we die.
Kelly
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by KellyJayYet, if you actually had a relationship with God wouldn't that transcend all the tenets, doubts, fears, joys, and so on life had to offer?
Well I did actually have "a relationship with God" that transcended the other things that "life had to offer". But I lost the belief. So I suppose I am proof that it can happen. Having encountered me, perhaps you can add what happened to me to your mental picture of the different things than can happen to different people in real life, rather than explaining [to yourself] that these differences result from "lying".
Seriously, with God who promised never to leave us or forsake us in this life when the good and bad come our way what could get between the two of you if what you professed was true what back then?
What I professed "back then" was "true". I don't profess it anymore because I no longer believe that "God [...] promised never to leave us or forsake us in this life when the good and bad come our way". Just suggesting over and over and over again that I am lying is not working, KellyJay.
If this life is all there is what a pile, let us eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.
You are welcome to look upon life without Christianity in this way if you wish, but it is your perception, not mine.
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by FMFI don't believe you can have a relationship with God that transcends all other things
[b]Yet, if you actually had a relationship with God wouldn't that transcend all the tenets, doubts, fears, joys, and so on life had to offer?
Well I did actually have "a relationship with God" that transcended the other things that "life had to offer". But I lost the belief. So I suppose I am proof that it can happen. Having encountered me, perhaps you c ...[text shortened]... without Christianity in this way if you wish, but it is your perception, not mine.[/b]
than some thing caused you to change, sort of casts a poor light on what you
thought you had did it not? The truth was either your walk with God did transcend
all other things or it didn't, and it appears, not so much because you walked away
from whatever it was you had. If all you had was a belief, and that belief setup
life to look like this and not that, and the not that came your way, I'd leave that
too, but that isn't leaving God that is just leaving the lie that life was supposed
to be this way and not that for God to be real.
Kelly
01 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't believe you can have a relationship with God that transcends all other things than some thing caused you to change, sort of casts a poor light on what you thought you had did it not?
That you don't believe me is abundantly clear. The cause of of the change was the loss of belief. I don't think it casts either a "poor light" or a 'good light' on how I used to be. It simply means that what used to be isn't so anymore, that's all.
The truth was either your walk with God did transcend all other things or it didn't, and it appears, not so much because you walked away from whatever it was you had.
I did "walk with God". I also "walked away". The latter simply does not preclude the former. In fact the latter cannot happen without the former. Furthermore, the fact that you cannot yourself imagine walking away does not affect the reality of what I once had and the reality of what then happened and it does not affect the veracity of what I have been telling you about myself.
If all you had was a belief, and that belief setup life to look like this and not that, and the not that came your way, I'd leave that too, but that isn't leaving God that is just leaving the lie that life was supposed to be this way and not that for God to be real.
I haven't "lied" about anything, KellyJay. You claiming, over and over and over and over again, that I am "lying" or that I was "lying" is not working as far as I am concerned. Perhaps there is some part of your "spiritual" side that enjoys attempting to explain difference and different experiences in this way.
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by FMFI think we said all that can be said on this no need to go on.
[b]I don't believe you can have a relationship with God that transcends all other things than some thing caused you to change, sort of casts a poor light on what you thought you had did it not?
That you don't believe me is abundantly clear. The cause of of the change was the loss of belief. I don't think it casts wither a "poor light" or a 'good light' on ...[text shortened]... attempting to explain difference and different experiences in this way.[/b]
Kelly
01 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIf you wouldn't mind stopping calling me a liar I'm happy enough, although if it floats your chat room boats then that's OK by me.
I think we said all that can be said on this no need to go on.
I have one question for you though. Have you ever accepted and understood the experience of someone who is different from you, and whose experience is different from yours, without trying to characterize the difference as being the result of "lies"?
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by FMFI think you are just as human and full of faults as I am, no worse or better.
If you wouldn't mind stopping calling me a liar I'm happy enough, although if it floats your chat room boats then that's OK by me.
I have one question for you though. Have you ever accepted and understood the experience of someone who is different from you, and whose experience is different from yours, without trying to characterize the difference as being the result of "lies"?
I don't believe you had a relationship with God, that does not mean I think you
are lying about it, I just don't think you can actually have that and than say it isn't
enough or wrong. We can agree to disagree.
Kelly
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by KellyJayYou have used words like 'lie', 'lies' and 'lying' repeatedly. In real life do you ever meet people who are different from you? If you can't understand the differences or you just do not accept the way in which they are different from you, do you fall back on this 'they are not telling the truth' thing, or is it only online?
I think you are just as human and full of faults as I am, no worse or better. I don't believe you had a relationship with God, that does not mean I think you are lying about it, I just don't think you can actually have that and than say it isn't enough or wrong.
We can agree to disagree.
We agree that I lost my Christian faith.
But I disagree that I must be virtually the same as you, or you have to understand me fully, before you consider me to have been a Christian in the past.
And - as far as I can tell - we agree that if you were to apply the same rhetorical device to yourself that you apply to me [retrospective denial of one's Christianity because the belief was lost] then we do not yet know for sure that you are a Christian now. We agree on this right?
01 Oct 12
2 edits
FMF: Offering a poor analogy that is a far cry from what we're talking about and then telling it's a far cry from what we are talking about, is not going to work with me.
Obviously nothing works with you, not even someone pointing out the fact that your argument contradicts itself.
You can't know someone who never existed. Period. You can stubbornly spin that until the cows come home, but it remains true.
You should either retract or rephrase, but, to keep on pushing forward like you're doing is the same as saying "Logic and facts be damned, I will never admit a mistake."
Civilized and fruitful debate is not possible with such a mindset.
01 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by sumydidI cannot now believe in or know someone who I don't believe was who Christians say he is/was. But I used to. I am making no "mistake"; there is no contradiction here and nothing has to be "retracted'. The fact that you cannot imagine yourself losing your faith does not have any impact on the reality of my faith in the past nor on the reality of me losing my faith.
You can't know someone who never existed. Period. You can stubbornly spin that until the cows come home, but it remains true.
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by sumydidthere is no contradiction in anything FMF has said. this is the fruition of your faulty logic; despite what claims you now make, some events may cause you to lose your faith in the future. if that is to occur, then you never knew christ. given that such an event may occur, we cannot establish for certain that you now know christ.
[b]FMF: Offering a poor analogy that is a far cry from what we're talking about and then telling it's a far cry from what we are talking about, is not going to work with me.
Obviously nothing works with you, not even someone pointing out the fact that your argument contradicts itself.
You can't know someone who never existed. Period. You can stub ...[text shortened]... er admit a mistake."
Civilized and fruitful debate is not possible with such a mindset.[/b]
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by FMFIt is a matter of I don't believe you can have a relationship with God, and blow it
You have used words like 'lie', 'lies' and 'lying' repeatedly. In real life do you ever meet people who are different from you? If you can't understand the differences or you just do not accept the way in which they are different from you, do you fall back on this 'they are not telling the truth' thing, or is it only online?
[b]We can agree to disagree. ...[text shortened]... then we do not yet know for sure that you are a Christian now. We agree on this right?[/b]
off if it as you claim it did transcend everything else, because obviously it did not
transcend everything else since you gave it up. So something about that statement
of faith you are claiming you had is NOT REAL! Either what you had was not so
important or it was, you don't get to say both, one is either real or the other is
they both cannot be true for anyone. So yes I have an issue with that, if you
cannot see the issue nothing I can say will make you. As far as your concern you
had a relationship with God through Jesus Christ that was more important than
anything else, than it wasn't.
Kelly
01 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayYou've made it quite clear you do not believe me. But your retrospective declarations about what my relationship with God was or wasn't, have no impact on what that relationship actually was. I find it interesting that you are so adamant about it superimposing your perceptions onto me. You almost sound like you're kind of over compensating.
It is a matter of I don't believe you can have a relationship with God, and blow it off if it as you claim it did transcend everything else, because obviously it did not transcend everything else since you gave it up.