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    19 Nov '16 08:49
    I've spent a great deal of thought on spirituality - probably more than it deserves. I reel in horror at the thought of countless neurons devoted to the topic.

    I've been an ordained Christian minister for over 20 years, but have been inactive for 11 or 12 now. The reason is that I learned what I thought I needed to know, and all to often have run into others that do not see theology (spirituality) the same way that I do. I've grown tired of justifying what I see as belief, hypocrisy, and the unwillingness to acknowledge facts. Spirituality is best served when it is in conjunction with what we know is true. Spirituality lends itself to the "I don't know..." and all too often those who profess and reject a faith are equally to blame for disallowing an "I don't know." position.
    Too often, the phrase "I believe..." is used to allow all manner of nonsense. Pish posh. "I believe..." is too often a convenient crutch to disclude fact. It's not necessary. What is necessary is a more open view.

    The spiritual and the anti-spiritual both suffer from the same lack of fact. Both seem to not be able to say "I don't know." Can you assert that there is a "god?" Can you assert that there is not a "god?" No, of course you can't - which ironically places both believer and atheist on the same path. You are blinded to the other, but also inexorably attached to the other, Do you really not see the irony?

    Spirituality is very simple, and at the same time personal. We are all free to believe as we wish. It does take a mental exercise to tell yourself that "This person is completely out of their fricken mind...but I'm ok with that." - meaning, the other person is free to believe what they believe and I must RESPECT that. Yeah, that's tough for us to do, and it matters not which side of the spectrum we fall.

    Be gracious. Be kind. Understand that others will not believe as you do, and it matters not what your belief system is.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    19 Nov '16 09:541 edit
    Originally posted by Badwater
    I've been an ordained Christian minister for over 20 years, but have been inactive for 11 or 12 now.


    Can you explain what an ordained Christian minister is to me?
    What is ordination?

    Do you have a plaque or certificate of some kind guaranteeing that you are a person officially trained to bring people to God?

    I believe very much in the priesthood of every believer in Christ.
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    19 Nov '16 12:111 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Can you explain what an ordained Christian minister is to me?
    What is ordination?
    What a disingenuous question. If someone made the mistake of taking the time to tell you, you would then say that you had, of course, known all along and go into long-and-high heat hairdryer mode expressing your ideological disapproval of ordination whilst leaving no doubt as to your own self-anointment.

    So you are a member of the "priesthood", are you sonship? Are all the Christians here in this community members of the "priesthood" too? roigam, CalJust, Rajk999, divegeester, robbie carrobie, checkbaiter... are they all "in the priesthood" just the same as you are?

    Have you really never, ever ... ever... heard of "ordination" before - or "holy orders" - and do you genuinely not know what it is, even though hundreds and hundreds of millions of your fellow Christians know exactly what the words mean?
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    19 Nov '16 12:391 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    What a disingenuous question. If someone made the mistake of taking the time to tell you, you would then say that you had, of course, known all along and go into long-and-high heat hairdryer mode expressing your ideological disapproval of ordination whilst leaving no doubt as to your own self-anointment.

    So you are a member of the "priesthood", are you sonsh ...[text shortened]... gh hundreds and hundreds of millions of your fellow Christians know exactly what the words mean?
    Says the all time Spirituality Forum master of disingenuous questions.
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    19 Nov '16 12:441 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    What a disingenuous question. If someone made the mistake of taking the time to tell you, you would then say that you had, of course, known all along and go into long-and-high heat hairdryer mode expressing your ideological disapproval of ordination whilst leaving no doubt as to your own self-anointment.

    So you are a member of the "priesthood", are you sonsh ...[text shortened]... gh hundreds and hundreds of millions of your fellow Christians know exactly what the words mean?
    Why don't you jump on Reverend Badwater for monolithic-ally stereotyping anyone speaking on the Bible as making "Redneck Noise" ?

    There's some bigotry for you to go after.
    I mean since you're are all tolerant and magnanimus.
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    19 Nov '16 13:30
    Originally posted by Badwater
    The spiritual and the anti-spiritual both suffer from the same lack of fact. Both seem to not be able to say "I don't know." Can you assert that there is a "god?" Can you assert that there is not a "god?" No, of course you can't - which ironically places both believer and atheist on the same path. You are blinded to the other, but also inexorably attached to the other, Do you really not see the irony?
    I am not sure I am 'anti-spiritual' but I am atheist. You are not only mistaken about the atheist position (which is strange given your claims about an interest in the truth), but you are also mistaken that the believer and the atheist are on the same path or that they are attached to each other.
    You claim to value the truth. Are you willing to have an honest discussion about your views on this matter?
    For the record, I do not assert that no god exists.
    I do assert that every god that has ever been defined to me except those along the lines of Einsteins god, do not exist. I also assert that practically any god worthy of the name almost certainly does not exist. And my assertions can be backed up with logic, and fact.

    "This person is completely out of their fricken mind...but I'm ok with that." - meaning, the other person is free to believe what they believe and I must RESPECT that.
    Respect in what way? Why?
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    19 Nov '16 14:111 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    So the topic is Spirituality. Fine. Lets' see how we can work this exchange into Badwater's subject.

    What a disingenuous question.



    It is a question to get things out in the open.
    The clergy / laity system has not been good for the flourishing of spirituality all that much.

    It puts TOO much pressure on some members of the Body of Christ who have been taught that they are supposed to have solutions to everyone's problems. This puts tremendous strain on people.

    It also limits the function of other members of the Body of Christ who are taught that this and that they are not qualified to do because it is the Pastor's job, which can also constrict the flow of blessing for the building up of the church.


    If someone made the mistake of taking the time to tell you, you would then say that you had, of course, known all along and go into long-and-high heat hairdryer mode expressing your ideological disapproval of ordination whilst leaving no doubt as to your own self-anointment.


    The previous pointing out that you are the maestro of the disingenuous innuendo loaded questions on this Forum, I think, is noted by more than just me.

    I do not claim a particular prophethood above anyone else as a position on this Forum. I never have. I have not argued for official authority in any manner. I have my viewpoint and rationals to confirm them as best as I can.

    Unlike Grampy Bobby, I never insisted the Pastoral System was the only valid place one can find proper expounding of the Bible. That was a position that Grampy held strongly.

    You never saw me pointing to myself as some official, ordained, only permanent instated teacher. I put my views out there and they either stand or fall on their own merits.

    I do hold that the Bible is the authoritative revelation of God.
    I have never argued that my interpretations of the Bible are infallible.

    You just better have good skill and reasoning to show me an interpretation is not valid.
    And I am NOT above being corrected.

    Next?


    So you are a member of the "priesthood", are you sonship?


    I think the Bible shows the priesthood of the believer.
    That is not an official position.

    And since the concern here is with genuine Spirituality, it should be welcomed that Christians all see that they are priests. Now if you regard a priest as something particularly religious, as in garb or something like a Catholic cleric, then you need to go to find out what a New Testament priest actually involves.

    I think you see "I am a priest" being said by me to mean "I am in a position and other Christians are not." The "universal priesthood" is much like the functioning members of the Body of Christ.

    It also recognizes quality of priestly service.
    And it recognizes growth of spiritual life and function.
    Universal priesthood is not anarchy.


    Are all the Christians here in this community members of the "priesthood" too?


    The teaching of the New Testament to the believers in Christ is that they are all members of a royal priesthood.

    " But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the virtues of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." ( 1 Peter 2:9)


    We Christians are all called to be collectively "a royal priesthood".

    Paul said as a gospel preaching Christian he was a "laboring priest" announcing the Gospel of God.

    " That I might be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, a laboring priest of the gospel of God, in order that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable having been sanctified in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:16)



    roigam, CalJust, Rajk999, divegeester, robbie carrobie, checkbaiter... are they all "in the priesthood" just the same as you are?


    Every true Christian should realize and live as they are in the "royal priesthood".
    The principle is what I mention.
    You are trying to move from that to getting me to hand out official ordination papers.

    It is good enough to mention that there is the priesthood of all believers in Christ.
    You desire to push me from that into a position of declaring every poster writing "spiritual" or bible things as having my personal recommendation for some position.


    Have you really never, ever ... ever... heard of "ordination" before - or "holy orders" - and do you genuinely not know what it is, even though hundreds and hundreds of millions of your fellow Christians know exactly what the words mean?


    Yes I know something about the clergy / laity system.

    For discussion's sake I asked him anyway. There was something in the tone of the OP that prompted me to to ask.

    Badwater is a big boy and can respond for himself.

    If Badwater wants to dismiss my posts on Revelation 14 as "Redneck Noise" he shouldn't mind if I call him out on what his "ordination" is that so qualifies him to "minister" in some official way.

    Don't get me wrong. (I know that is your job though). Possessing skills picked up such as Hebrew reading or Greek reading or some other education, I do not despise. If it were me I would take the skill and forget about the official ordination.

    That's because I read a book once called "The Normal Christian Church Life" by a real functioning member of the Body of Christ with no seminary training - Brother Watchman Nee.

    I know of another man who read that book and returned his ordination papers to his seminary. He told them that he had changed and had seen something higher about the priesthood of the believers in the New Testament.

    That was a bold and consistent dedication to what someone learned was really true. It was a sacrifice that I myself am humbled at and would not boast that I would easily be able to do the same. But since I have no ordination papers I don't have to.

    Christians go through different experiences of consecration. One dealing is for one believer and another is tailored for another believer.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    19 Nov '16 14:153 edits
    Come on FMF. After me laboring on that long reply, come back now with your customary innuendo-ed few. See if you can get a zinger in there in under 20 words.
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    19 Nov '16 15:00
    Originally posted by FMF
    What a disingenuous question. If someone made the mistake of taking the time to tell you, you would then say that you had, of course, known all along and go into long-and-high heat hairdryer mode expressing your ideological disapproval of ordination whilst leaving no doubt as to your own self-anointment.

    So you are a member of the "priesthood", are you sonsh ...[text shortened]... gh hundreds and hundreds of millions of your fellow Christians know exactly what the words mean?
    Well since it apparently does not matter what we believe who cares?


    LOL.
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    19 Nov '16 15:00
    Originally posted by sonship
    Says the all time [b]Spirituality Forum master of disingenuous questions.[/b]
    That sir is called a troll.
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    19 Nov '16 15:502 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    I've spent a great deal of thought on spirituality - probably more than it deserves. I reel in horror at the thought of countless neurons devoted to the topic.

    I've been an ordained Christian minister for over 20 years, but have been inactive for 11 or 12 now. The reason is that I learned what I thought I needed to know, and all to often have run into o ...[text shortened]... nderstand that others will not believe as you do, and it matters not what your belief system is.
    "Spirituality is very simple, and at the same time personal. We are all free to believe as we wish."

    This is what made me blink. Does this mean spirituality is a realm of thought in which our belief that we stubbed our toe is unattached to the fact that we didn't? More to the point, does it mean that our belief that there is or is not a particular deity, is more important than the fact that there is or is not that deity?

    Maybe this is a way to carve out the proper realm of spirituality -- spirituality properly concerns itself with the effects of certain kinds of beliefs, not with whether facts underlie them. And it concerns itself with the here and now effects, not the supposed future effects.
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    19 Nov '16 15:59
    Originally posted by JS357
    "Spirituality is very simple, and at the same time personal. We are all free to believe as we wish."

    This is what made me blink. Does this mean spirituality is a realm of thought in which our belief that we stubbed our toe is unattached to the fact that we didn't? More to the point, does it mean that our belief that there is or is not a particular deity, is ...[text shortened]... lie them. And it concerns itself with the here and now effects, not the supposed future effects.
    Belief holds the key to our future. It will determine what we will do and become.
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    19 Nov '16 16:42
    Originally posted by whodey
    Belief holds the key to our future. It will determine what we will do and become.
    The acquisition of beliefs might not be by the way they are later justified.
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    19 Nov '16 16:56
    Originally posted by JS357
    The acquisition of beliefs might not be by the way they are later justified.
    Justified or not, we live our lives by them.

    We then later find out, usually the hard way, whether or not our beliefs were correct. or not.
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    19 Nov '16 17:24
    Originally posted by Badwater
    I've spent a great deal of thought on spirituality - probably more than it deserves. I reel in horror at the thought of countless neurons devoted to the topic.

    I've been an ordained Christian minister for over 20 years, but have been inactive for 11 or 12 now. The reason is that I learned what I thought I needed to know, and all to often have run into o ...[text shortened]... nderstand that others will not believe as you do, and it matters not what your belief system is.
    If truth does exist, would it matter if people did not believe it?
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