Originally posted by FMF
What do you mean by "magical"?

I mean without any thought process and decision making from your part.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I mean without any thought process and decision making from your part.

I have not claimed that my loss of faith happened without "any thought process". You are being silly. I have explained over and over and over and over again the role I think that "decisions" and "choices" play in the process of reappraising one's faith.

Originally posted by FMF
I have not claimed that my loss of faith happened without "any thought process". You are being silly. I have explained over and over and over and over again the role I think that "decisions" and "choices" play in the process of reappraising one's faith.

So you still claim that you are not the one to decide whether or not Christianity is believable?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So you still claim that you are not the one to decide whether or not Christianity is believable?

I eventually realized I had lost my Christian faith after a prolonged period of reflection.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So you still claim that you are not the one to decide whether or not Christianity is believable?

You keep asking me this question over and over again and then ignoring the answer. As I said, with empirical things, I think you can weigh data and facts and make a decision ~ like a jury, or a policeman, or a historian, or a businessman, for example.

But I don't think it works with religious faith. You have absolutely no empirical data to offer in support of the religious beliefs and ideology that you want me to weigh. Your notions are much of a muchness with the supposed supernatural underpinning of the beliefs and ideologies of my Muslim and Hindu neighbours.

I think with such intangible, philosophical, and sometimes hard to express thoughts and notions, that it is a realization and not a decision. Decisions have a role to play in arriving at certain beliefs - for sure - but, whether something pertaining to the supernatural is credible or incredible, I think it's something we realize we believe and/or we take it for granted and never really reflect upon it.

If you don't accept this personal testimony that I am offering, that's fine by me.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Have you ever decided that anything is true or is everything you believe a magical realization?

What do you mean by "magical"?

Originally posted by FMF
You keep asking me this question over and over again and then ignoring the answer. As I said, with empirical things, I think you can weigh data and facts and make a decision ~ like a jury, or a policeman, or a historian, or a businessman, for example.

But I don't think it works with religious faith. You have absolutely no empirical data to offer in support o ...[text shortened]... upon it.

If you don't accept this personal testimony that I am offering, that's fine by me.

So if we look at the Bible and the claims it makes about Jesus you think it is impossible to weigh up the facts and make a decision about it?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So if we look at the Bible and the claims it makes about Jesus you think it is impossible to weigh up the facts and make a decision about it?

What "facts" are you referring to?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So if we look at the Bible and the claims it makes about Jesus you think it is impossible to weigh up the facts and make a decision about it?

I used to believe very strongly that Jesus was divine and that he was the Son of God and that I was "saved" but over a period of time my belief in the validity of the Bible as evidence to support those beliefs (and others) weakened and crumbled away until I realized that my faith was lost and I was no longer a Christian. There was no moment when one could identify a decision to that effect had been made ~ which you ought to know as I have explained that decision-realization thing to you over and over and over again.

Originally posted by divegeester
What "facts" are you referring to?

I think in Fetchmyjunkworld, "facts" = whatever he believes is "true" = "universal truths" = stuff that must be credible to everyone because it's credible to him.

Originally posted by FMF
I used to believe very strongly that Jesus was divine and that he was the Son of God and that I was "saved" but over a period of time my belief in the validity of the Bible as evidence to support those beliefs (and others) weakened and crumbled away until I realized that my faith was lost and I was no longer a Christian. There was no moment when one could identi ...[text shortened]... to know as I have explained that decision-realization thing to you over and over and over again.

So is your answer to my question a yes or a no?

Originally posted by divegeester
What "facts" are you referring to?

Any facts pertaining to the historicity of Jesus.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Any facts pertaining to the historicity of Jesus.

I don't question the historicity of Jesus. What I don't find credible are the claims that his followers made - and continue to make - about him.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So is your answer to my question a yes or a no?

Did you not read my post before you replied to it? As I said in my answer, quite clearly, and point blank, there was no moment when one could identify a decision to that effect (regarding not being a Christian anymore) had been made ~ which you ought to know as I have explained my view on this decision-realization thing to you over and over and over again.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't question the historicity of Jesus. What I don't find credible are the claims that his followers made - and continue to make - about him.

Which claims in particular don't you find credible? Also do you think that people who do find them credible do so out of ignorance?