-Removed-already explained, countless times already
i will do so for the very last time.
Jehovah is the source of salvation, he provided his son, the Christ as a means of
salvation. Christ is termed the the only saviour because he is the only one who
could provide a corresponding ransom to propitiate for what was lost by Adam .
There is to us one God the father. Christ is termed 'a god', because 'a god', is a
description of the type of entity that he is. This is readily discernible from an
examination of the base text, the predicate noun tells us something about the
subject. It does not mean that Christ is the Almighty, it merely means that he is
divine in character, as are the angels and other spiritual entities. If you understood
anything about Biblical grammar you would know this.
These things are perfectly clear to me and the Gman, why? because we have not let
any preconceived idea as to the nature of the Christ interfere with our
understanding of the sacred text. You can either accept this fact or you cannot.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJust because I am ignoring a poster does not mean I will not post in this discussion. I find it to be difficult to participate in a discussion without being forced to read some nonsense like what one poster writes.
ok, Jaywills out, he left in a foray of foam and petulance, one down, three to go!
So though I expect no benefit to be derived by the oppossing JWs I still have much to say in defense of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ and in the truth of the revelation of the Triune God.
Jesus Christ is the God of whom it says "Your God has anointed You" in both Psalm 45 and Hebrews 1.
Verse 3 of Psalm 45 says "Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O mighty God"
Since the child Jesus Christ is the Mighty God incarnate the Psalm prophetically refers to the King here as "O mighty God" (Psa. 45:3)
But there is much more. This King's throne is forever and ever (Psalm 45 6a compare Hebrews 1:8a)
In quoting Psalm 102:25-27 the writer of Hebrews identifies this King as the God who created all things:
"And, 'You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment." (Heb. 1:10 compare Psalm 102:25-27).
Yet this King is a man Whom God has anointed with His Spirit ABOVE His partners.
"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultation [exultant joy] above Your partners." (Heb 1:9 comp Psalm 45:7)
Since God was incarnate, the mighty God has "partners" which will be His human believers. Those men and women who believe into the Son become the partners of the God man Jesus. He is anointed, though, above all of His saved saints who have become partners.
The writer of Hebrews latter says "For we have become PARTNERS of CHrist, if indeed we hold fast the beginning of the assurance firm to the end." (Heb. 3:14)
This simply means that if the overcoming Christians endure with Him through all tribulation in the church age, they will reign with Christ as co-kings as a reward. The same applied to the overcoming saints of the Old Testament who were the first recipients of the Psalm 45.
But this incarnated God as a man had grace pouring forth from His lips always:
"Grace is poured upon Your lips" (Psalm 45:2b)
You see Luke 4:22 also tells us that the people marveled at the words of grace proceeding out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus.
Briefly, all this Psalm speaks of God incarnated as the Son of Man, with grace pouring forth from His teaching, loving righteousness, hating lawlessness and coming into His kingdom as the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection:
He is a man with partners.
He is God who created all things in the beginning.
He accomplished redemption and sat down on the right hand of God.
"Who being the effulgence of His glory and the impress of His substance and upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Heb 1:3)
This marvelous Son is not to be compared to ANY angel:
"For to which of the angels has He ever said, "You are My Son; this day have I begotten You" ? And again, " I will be a Father to Him, and He will be a Son to Me"? (Heb 1:5)
The answer is of course To NO angel .
Two angels only are mentioned by name in the Bible (aside from the bad angel Daystar [Lucifer in Latin] ).
To Gabriel it was never spoken that he would be God's Son.
To Michael it was never spoken that he would be God's Son.
To NO angel was it ever said that he would be God's Son.
The writer could not be refering to angelic "sons of God" in the book of Job. If that is the case he would not make such a claim that:
The Son of God "Having become as much better than the angels as to have inherited a more distiguished name than they - For to which of the angels has He ever said, "You are My Son ...?"
I think we can rest assured that any "sons of God" as angels refered to in the book of Job or Genesis is not the class of being from which this Son of God comes.
This Son is addressed as "O God":
"But of the Son, "You throne, O God, is forever and ever ..." "(Heb 1:8)
Then we have God as a man, and God's God:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ... You have loved righteousness [as evidenced by His obedience unto death on the cross] and hated lawlessness; THEREFORE, God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultatant joy above Your partners." (Heb 1:9)
This is marvelous. This obedient Man is God whose throne is forever and ever and whose name is better than the angels.
We also have in the parellel between Psalm 45 and Hebrews 1 a Man who loved righteousness to the uttermost and has a kingdom based on the authority He has as a righteous Man.
" But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprighteness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Heb 1:8 comp Psalm 45:6)
His obedience qualifies Him to be the eternal righteous King. The JWs like to refer to First Corinthians 15 to assume that Christ's reign is only temporary, lasting 1,000 years. However, whatever First Corinthians 15:27,28 means it cannot mean that this King's throne is not for eternity:
"But of the SON, "Your throne is FOREVER AND EVER ..."
There is no hope for a TEMPORARY reign of the incarnate Godman Jesus. His kingdom and His throne is forever and ever. He can still deliver up the kingdom to His Father and be the eternal King. For that is the will of the Father.
We can not exult Jesus Christ too highly. The higher we exult Jesus Christ the happier God will be, period.
Originally posted by jaywillbut you expect me to read your texts while you ignore the import of mine, hardly a
Just because I am ignoring a poster does not mean I will not post in this discussion. I find it to be difficult to participate in a discussion without being forced to read some nonsense like what one poster writes.
So though I expect no benefit to be derived by the opposers. I still have much to say in defense of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ an ...[text shortened]... sus Christ the happier God will be, period.
reasonable approach, is it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo. I expect you to either not read it and ignore it or read it and ignore it.
but you expect me to read your texts while you ignore the import of mine, hardly a
reasonable approach, is it.
Frankly I don't care either way.
It is not written for you as far as I am concerned.
Originally posted by jaywilltouchy! touchy! touchy! , as you wish Lord Vader! it is difficult to assail our solid logic
No. I expect you to either not read it and ignore it or read it and ignore it.
Frankly I don't care either way.
It is not written [b]for you as far as I am concerned.[/b]
with irrational and unfounded beliefs based on dogma rather than the word of God, id
get frustrated as well if I were you.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"The factious man, after a first and second admonition, refuse, knowing that such a one is perverted and is sinning, though he is condemned by his own self." (Titus 3:11)
touchy! touchy! touchy! , as you wish Lord Vader! it is difficult to assail our solid logic
with irrational and unfounded beliefs based on dogma rather than the word of God, id
get frustrated as well if I were you.
I think I have gone way way way beyond the first and second admonition. I will take the responsibility of my attitude before the judgment seat of Christ and let Him judge me.
Originally posted by jaywillSure, you cannot assail the logic so you must attack the personality behind it. I
[b]"The factious man, after a first and second admonition, refuse, knowing that such a one is perverted and is sinning, though he is condemned by his own self." (Titus 3:11)
I think I have gone way way way beyond the first and second admonition. I will take the responsibility of my attitude before the judgment seat of Christ and let Him judge me.[/b]
suspect Jesus will take a rather dim view of such cowardice.
(Hebrews 10:38-39) . . .“But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,” and, “if he
shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” Now we are not the sort that shrink
back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell if you don't give a damn then why should we? Actually however who gives a damn right? We're all going to end up zapped out of existence by your Jehovah watch tower God anyway. No paradise earth for the heathens. I think you get off on your trying to be high and mighty with you intellectual mumbo jumbo !!!!
i have not tried to avoid anything, I have the same beliefs as the Gman, i am
interested not in theological debate, but in what the original texts states, have i not
made this clear enough. f course i could render an explanation, but so what? would
you accept it? i doubt it. Whereas when one reads and reasons from the base texts,
its not ...[text shortened]... s for itself. You can
impute whatever motives you think, frankly my dear, i dont give a damn!
Tell us what does the original text say ? Is it written Hebrew? Or Greek translated?
PS: I would rather get annihilated then live in this JW goofy paradise earth that's coming. A bunch of goofs in goofy shirts peddling their magrag!!
Manny
-Removed-Are we told to worship Jesus anywhere in the Bible? Did Jesus ever tell us to worship him? When humans wanted to worship him how did he respond?
This is the really BIG point that all you guys are missing. Jesus himself said many times that it is his FATHER/JEHOVAH ALONE we are to worship.
That is a huge differance between the two Gods. Yes the Bible refers to both of them as God's, the Mighty God Jesus and the Almighty God Jehovah.
So yes we admit by scripture that they are both Gods but that does not mean we worship both. Just because a being is called a God does not mean automatic worship is performed to a God. Again.....satan is called a God in the Bible but do we worship him just because he is called a God?
All of you need to study your Bibles with honestly wanting to find the truth of your God Jehovah and who he is and who Jesus is.
Manny this should cover your question also........ If Jesus were truly Almighty God who has always been called Father in the Bible then why is this term only now being used in the case of Jesus? If Jesus were truly Almighty God then Jesus being equal to God as the trinity teaches, then Father would have always been used for Jesus too from the beginning of the Bible. But that term Father was never used in conection with Jesus anywhere in the Bible until Jesus was resurrected.
And again......Jesus has now earned this priviledge to also be called a Father to us as he has nwo been assigned by his Father Jehovah to correct our problems, protect us and be our King.
That honor by no means mean he is Almighty God.
Originally posted by menace71PS: I would rather get annihilated then live in this JW goofy paradise earth that's
Well if you don't give a damn then why should we? Actually however who gives a damn right? We're all going to end up zapped out of existence by your Jehovah watch tower God anyway. No paradise earth for the heathens. I think you get off on your trying to be high and mighty with you intellectual mumbo jumbo !!!!
Tell us what does the original text say ? ...[text shortened]... adise earth that's coming. A bunch of goofs in goofy shirts peddling their magrag!!
Manny
coming. A bunch of goofs in goofy shirts peddling their magrag!!
yes, you can sit around, going to church on a Sunday, being an armchair Christian like
the millions of other nominal Christians while millions of people go spiritually hungry
and leave the work of teaching and preaching about Gods Kingdom (from house to
house after the example of Christ and the apostles) to us, or you can join us in this
great educational program. When Armageddon strikes, it will be up to God to
determine who are the wheat and who are the weeds.
anyhow, hasn't Jaywill counselled you not to talk to me? i am a dangerous fellow
you know.
The Bible’s Viewpoint
Is It Proper to Worship Jesus?
THROUGHOUT the centuries, many in Christendom have worshiped Jesus Christ as if he were Almighty God. Jesus himself, however, directed attention and worship only to Jehovah God. For example, when prodded to do an act of worship to the Devil, Jesus said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matthew 4:10) Later Jesus instructed his disciples: “Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.”—Matthew 23:9.
To a Samaritan woman, Jesus described the type of worship that individuals must give to God. Their worship must be based on spirit and truth. Indeed, “the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.” (John 4:23, 24) Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Galatians 5:19, 20.
‘But,’ some may counter, ‘does the Bible not indicate that we must also worship Jesus? Did Paul not say at Hebrews 1:6: “Let all the angels of God worship him [Jesus]”?’ (King James Version) How can we understand this scripture in the light of what the Bible says about idolatry?
Worship in the Bible
First, we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship. He used the Greek word proskyneo. Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man . . . or to God.” In Bible times proskyneo often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.
Consider the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a substantial sum of money to his master. A form of this Greek word appears in this parable, and in translating it the King James Version says that “the servant therefore fell down, and worshipped [form of proskyneo] him [the king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26; italics ours.) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? Not at all! He was merely expressing the kind of reverence and respect due the king, his master and superior.
Such acts of obeisance, or expressions of respect, were fairly common in the Orient of Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times upon meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph’s brothers prostrated themselves, or did obeisance, before him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when the astrologers found the young child Jesus, whom they recognized as “the one born king of the Jews.” As rendered in the King James Version, the account tells us that they “fell down, and worshipped [proskyneo] him.”—Matthew 2:2, 11.
Clearly, then, the word proskyneo, rendered “worship” in some Bible translations, is not reserved exclusively for the type of adoration due Jehovah God. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. In an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, some Bible translations render the word proskyneo at Hebrews 1:6 as “pay him homage” (New Jerusalem Bible), “honour him” (The Complete Bible in Modern English), “bow down before him” (Twentieth Century New Testament), or “do obeisance to him” (New World Translation).
Jesus Is Worthy of Obeisance
Is Jesus worthy of such obeisance? Most decidedly, yes! In his letter to the Hebrews, the apostle Paul explains that as the “heir of all things,” Jesus has “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.” (Hebrews 1:2-4) Thus, “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:10,11.
Outstandingly, Christ will soon use this exalted position and the extensive executive powers that go with it to transform this earth into a global paradise. Under God’s direction, and as a result of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, he will rid the world of all sadness, pain, and sorrow for the benefit of those who submit to his righteous rule. Is he therefore not worthy of our honor, respect, and obedience?—Psalm 2:12; Isaiah 9:6; Luke 23:43; Revelation 21:3, 4.
“A God Exacting Exclusive Devotion”
The Bible clearly indicates, however, that our worship—in the sense of religious reverence and devotion—must be addressed solely to God. Moses described him as “a God exacting exclusive devotion.” And the Bible exhorts us to “worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.”—Deuteronomy 4:24; Revelation 14:7.
Jesus certainly occupies a pivotal role in true worship, one worthy of honor and respect. (2 Corinthians 1:20, 21; 1 Timothy 2:5) He is the only way through which we are able to approach Jehovah God. (John 14:6) Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty.
Originally posted by galveston75beautiful.
The Bible’s Viewpoint
Is It Proper to Worship Jesus?
THROUGHOUT the centuries, many in Christendom have worshiped Jesus Christ as if he were Almighty God. Jesus himself, however, directed attention and worship only to Jehovah God. For example, when prodded to do an act of worship to the Devil, Jesus said: “I ...[text shortened]... Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty.
Is It Proper to Worship Jesus?
THROUGHOUT the centuries, many in Christendom have worshiped Jesus Christ as if he were Almighty God. Jesus himself, however, directed attention and worship only to Jehovah God.
Despite the fact that both the Old and New Testmanet forbid worshipping anyone other than God (Exodus 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9; Acts 14:15; Rev. 22:8-9), Jesus accepted worship on at least nine occasions:
1. by a healed leper (Matt. 8:2)
2. by a ruler whose son Jesus had healed (Matt.9:18)
3. by the disciples after a storm (Matt. 14:33)
4. by a Canaanite woman (Matt. 15:25)
5. by the mother of James and John (Matt.20:20)
6. by a Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6)
7. by a healed blind man (John 9:38)
8. by all the disciples (Matt. 28:17).
9. by the disciple Thomas, who said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)
[/b]
To a Samaritan woman, Jesus described the type of worship that individuals must give to God. Their worship must be based on spirit and truth. Indeed, “the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.” (John 4:23, 24) Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God.
The poster has a kind of sanctimonious concept that worship must mean only protrating oneself or kneeling or bowing or declaring adoration.
In John chapter 4 worship is to drink the living water, which refers to taking in the Spirit of God. This drinking of God as a kind of divine beverage is also worship.
Paul says all the Christians have been baptized into the Spirit in order to DRINK of the Spirit:
"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:13)
The believers have thus been immersed into a realm of the living Spirit of God. They are to "drink" from the realm that they are living. This involves any enjoyment of the Holy Spirit in obedience, speaking, singing, praising, but also even in meditating, in opening up of the heart, in telling Him forth to others, and in prayer, in rejoicing, in the proper use of tongue speaking, in verbally exalting Christ and God -
All this is drinking in the living water. All of this is worship as Jesus spoke in John chapter 4. All of this is touching the indwelling Holy Spirit which is the pneumatic Christ, and allowing Him to spring up in our beings:
"Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again. But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life." (John 4:13,14)
A careful reading of John 4 as well as John 7 reveals that to be inwardly satisfied with Christ is true worship. To quench one's inward spiritual thirst with Christ is worship. AND OF COURSE HE RECEIVES IT!
The believers were immersed into the Spirit in order to quench their thirst through the Spirit. A careful readling of John 4 and First Corinthians 12 reveals that this thirst quenching receiving of the Holy Spirit is WORSHIP.
The thirst quenching living water of the dispensed Christ is also seen in John 7:
"He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:38,39)
Any quenching of the inner spiritual thirst through the Spirit of Jesus Christ is also true worship of God and of Jesus Christ.