1. Standard membercaissad4
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    25 Apr '14 08:38
    In the media we hear about "suicide by cop". That is to say, someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective. 🙄🙄🙄
  2. Cape Town
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    25 Apr '14 08:58
    Originally posted by caissad4
    In the media we hear about "suicide by cop". That is to say, someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective. 🙄🙄🙄
    You could say the same about many human rights activists. Some people are willing to die for their beliefs.
    But whether or not 'suicide' is the correct word is debatable.
    Are all soldiers suicidal because they put their lives at risk? Clearly some are (suicide bombers, Kamikaze) and are often named so.
    Once could say 'it would be suicide to rob that bank'.
    But is everyone who puts their life at risk committing suicide?
    And even if they know they will die and we say they committed suicide, what difference does that make ie what conclusions do you wish to draw from the label?
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Apr '14 09:12
    Originally posted by caissad4
    In the media we hear about "suicide by cop". That is to say, someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective. 🙄🙄🙄
    Hardly, Jesus had the power to give His life and take it back again. Not a
    single one of us who kills ourselves can do that. He did go along with that
    due being able to take it back again so He could pay a price for us.

    Unlike suicide by cop He didn't go out of His way to make a cop shoot Him,
    He offered no defense to charges brought against Him which were false.

    The charges that He had nailed above His head were not for crimes, they
    were simply stating who Jesus was. They killed Him for being who He was.
    Kelly
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    25 Apr '14 09:13
    Originally posted by caissad4
    In the media we hear about "suicide by cop". That is to say, someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective. 🙄🙄🙄
    One could certainly say this as when he spoke and revealed who he was the soldiers fell backwards, so he certainly had some kind of powerful authority sufficient to defend himself if he so chose.

    However adopting your reasoning one could also say Jesus was murdered by his father and the angelic host was complicit in not saving him, as were the 11 who neglected to defend him in the garden at his arrest.

    One could also suggest, on occasions, that he gave his life in vain.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    25 Apr '14 09:16
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Hardly, Jesus had the power to give His life and take it back again.
    Does this ~ plus the fact that he knew he was going to rise from the dead and later ascend into heaven ~ not detract from the impressiveness of what he did, to some degree?
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    25 Apr '14 09:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You could say the same about many human rights activists. Some people are willing to die for their beliefs.
    But whether or not 'suicide' is the correct word is debatable.
    Are all soldiers suicidal because they put their lives at risk? Clearly some are (suicide bombers, Kamikaze) and are often named so.
    Once could say 'it would be suicide to rob that b ...[text shortened]... suicide, what difference does that make ie what conclusions do you wish to draw from the label?
    Interesting question.

    Suicide is, in my understanding, to do an act that leads to ones own death. Putting a bullet in ones head is certainly a suicide. Standing in front of a train is also suicide even if you just avoid going aside when the train comes.

    It is suicide if you threat a police with a gun and he shoots you to death, and that is your very plan.

    I don't think that a soldier is committing suicide just to expose himself for a risk, because he intend to come home eventually. Same goes for robbing a bank. If you are sure that you will die in there and still decide to give it a shot (sorry) give it a try. If you die it was a fault in your plan, and not a planned suicide.

    So if you know you will die and do it anyway, then it is suicide.

    How about Jesus, was he suicidal? Let's study the case:
    The prophecy said what would going to happen. He could avoid it, but he didn't. He went willingly to his own death. Yes, I would say that this was the elements for a suicide, so suicide it was.

    Religiously we could say that he sacrificed his life to mankinds sins and all, and because of that it wasn't a suicide. But for any other person it would be a clear suicide because he could avoid it if he wanted to, but he didn't.
  7. Standard membercaissad4
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    25 Apr '14 09:19
    Originally posted by divegeester

    However adopting your reasoning one could also say Jesus was murdered by his father and the angelic host was complicit in not saving him, as were the 11 who neglected to defend him in the garden at his arrest.

    One could also suggest, on occasions, that he gave his life in vain.[/b]
    No, no. He committed suicide FOR his father. It was entirely his decision to kill himself.
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    25 Apr '14 09:20
    Originally posted by FMF
    Does this ~ plus the fact that he knew he was going to rise from the dead and later ascend into heaven ~ not detract from the impressiveness of what he did, to some degree?
    Only if you think it was "impressive". I view it more out of necessity and the evidence points to the fact that Jesus' human nature certainly did Not want to go through with it, the powerful descriptions from the garden highlight this. Furthermore the father abandoned him on the cross, of at least left him to think that. A little how some humans feel today I think and probably done to ensure Christ felt and carried the full consequence of mankind's sin in order for the price to be paid in full.
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    25 Apr '14 09:21
    Originally posted by caissad4
    No, no. He committed suicide FOR his father. It was entirely his decision to kill himself.
    Not scripturally correct. Every indication in text was that he was "sent" and was "obedient unto death".
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Apr '14 09:22
    Originally posted by divegeester
    One could certainly say this as when he spoke and revealed who he was the soldiers fell backwards, so he certainly had some kind of powerful authority sufficient to defend himself if he so chose.

    However adopting your reasoning one could also say Jesus was murdered by his father and the angelic host was complicit in not saving him, as were the 11 who ...[text shortened]... e garden at his arrest.

    One could also suggest, on occasions, that he gave his life in vain.
    He did not give His life in vain. He pleased God by laying down His life, the
    fact He did that was enough. The reward of His suffering is us turning our
    lives back over to God so we can be in His Kingdom as part of His family.

    Granted He loves the lost, it was for sinners He died not the righteous, and
    when we turn away from sin and serve Him we both receive something so
    very special we belong together as family.
    Kelly
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    25 Apr '14 09:23
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Only if you think it was "impressive". I view it more out of necessity and the evidence points to the fact that Jesus' human nature certainly did Not want to go through with it, the powerful descriptions from the garden highlight this. Furthermore the father abandoned him on the cross, of at least left him to think that. A little how some humans feel tod ...[text shortened]... elt and carried the full consequence of mankind's sin in order for the price to be paid in full.
    Isn't the "impressiveness" of Jesus's sacrifice the absolute crux of Christianity.
  12. Standard membercaissad4
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    25 Apr '14 09:23
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Not scripturally correct. Every indication in text was that he was "sent" and was "obedient unto death".
    Oh, you mean like a suicide bomber ?
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    25 Apr '14 09:25
    Originally posted by caissad4
    Oh, you mean like a suicide bomber ?
    That's exactly what you thought I meant wasn't it.
  14. Subscribermoonbus
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    25 Apr '14 09:26
    "..someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective."

    Jesus used the Romans as a tool to work God's will. He also used Judas. It was all part of a grandly orchestrated plan. As God incarnate, he could have magically-miraculously gotten himself down off the cross, too; but that wouldn't have fulfilled the Plan.
  15. Subscribermoonbus
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    25 Apr '14 09:29
    Originally posted by FMF
    Does this ~ plus the fact that he knew he was going to rise from the dead and later ascend into heaven ~ not detract from the impressiveness of what he did, to some degree?
    The question more sharply focused: is it a genuine sacrifice if you know in advance you're going to get it back 3 days later? And get it back _better_.
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