Suicide by Romans ??

Originally posted by KellyJay
His divine task? You can excuse every crime under the sun by saying that!
He did what did, his choices revealed his nature just as our choices reveal
ours. He had choices to be made, and he made them, it isn't divine
destiny when someone who is a thief steals when another predicts it will
happen, it is the thief making a choice they have been making all ...[text shortened]... us would survive, for all
we know if not him then someone or something else would occur.
Kelly

In this case it really was a divine task. He fulfilled the prophecy.
If he could chose he might not do it, but he did it either of free will to do what was laid upon him by prophecy, or he did it not by his own choice but he was forced to do it by intervention from god. In either case he made Jesus to sacrifice himself on the cross, according to the prophecy.

If you ask me, it's a good story, kids love such stories. I don't believe in the sac thing, he was just punished by the Romans. There was nothing religious about it. It is just a construction invented by people long after. But religiously, Judas did his thing, bravo!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
In this case it really was a divine task. He fulfilled the prophecy.
If he could chose he might not do it, but he did it either of free will to do what was laid upon him by prophecy, or he did it not by his own choice but he was forced to do it by intervention from god. In either case he made Jesus to sacrifice himself on the cross, according to the prop ...[text shortened]... just a construction invented by people long after. But religiously, Judas did his thing, bravo!

As I said when sinners sin they do the samething, they do something
that was foretold they would do, sin. He did what he wanted and that
was act out of his desires. Intervention by God? God did not force him
or anyone to act, we are given choices and we act.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I said when sinners sin they do the samething, they do something
that was foretold they would do, sin. He did what he wanted and that
was act out of his desires. Intervention by God? God did not force him
or anyone to act, we are given choices and we act.
Kelly

So you don't believe in prophecies?

Originally posted by FabianFnas

It is just a construction invented by people long after.

When Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians there were still a good portion of 500 people who were still remained alive at that time, who could testify that they had seen the resurrected Jesus Christ.

In the same letter Paul refers to a creedal like formula which he said had been delivered to him. That means it was already in existence, being taught, become a tradition, and was expected to be followed by apostles of Christ.

That puts the matter of the details of Paul's letter quite close to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Here's where he said that most of 500 witnesses to the risen Jesus were still alive to either confirm or deny Paul's report:

"And He [Christ] appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve; Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until now, but some have fallen asleep." (1 Cor. 15:5,6)

And here in the same letter chapter he recites a creedal type of formula which was in use and become a custom among the teachers of the new covenant while these 500 or so witnesses were still alive.

"For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received,

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures ..." (1 Cor. 15:3,4)

This formulaic pronouncement "For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received ..." was a customary way rabbis of that day indicated that they were faithful students or disciples of elder teachers, that they were not deviating from traditions held previously and passed down to them.

So if you have 500 some witnesses to the resurrection still living who can testify to Paul's gospel or deny it, and a even earlier rabbinical like formula that there was a teaching that Jesus rose from the dead, then you have evidence quite close to the event.

This evidence may not prove that Jesus was Son of God and rose. But it does demonstrate that a considerable group of people believed that. And they did so certainly within the breadth of a few decades from the events.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Only in a fallen world could one who betrays another for money, after
stealing from him could be thought of as a hero. Judas did wasn't
sacrificing himself, his guilt overwhelmed him for the crimes he had done.
Judas saved no one, so exactly how could he be called a savior?
Kelly

Borges put it so much more eloquently than I could. It goes something like this:

If Jesus was omniscient, then he must have known the very first day he evangelized him that Judas would eventually betray him. Poor Judas; he was only playing the part his master and mentor had laid out for him. Jesus could have picked someone else to be his dubious disciple; Judas got unlucky. It was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it: somebody had to betray Jesus in order that the Romans should execute him. Jesus jumping off a cliff wouldn't have fit the Grand Plan. That would have been 'mere' suicide with no redemptive dimension.

Of course Judas was overwhelmed with guilt; who wouldn't be? But consider this: Judas forfeited not only his life, but his eternal salvation, that Jesus' work might be accomplished; whereas Jesus sacrificed his life knowing he would be resurrected 3 days later. So, whose was the greater loss, the greater sacrifice?

Jesus died for mankind; Judas died for Jesus. The fact that Judas killed himself after the crucifixion is irrelevant; the order of events in linear time is irrelevant--for eternity was at stake. The one death wouldn't have come about with the other--they needed each other to accomplish the redemption. "The deed must be done, but woe to him who must do it."

Judas was not a "hero"--that is the wrong term. That the most wretched possible sinner should forfeit his life and his eternal salvation in order that the Blameless One's purpose should be fulfilled, is nonetheless a noble deed, if you remove the 'bad spin' Judas got from the account in Scripture.

I paraphrase Borges here. I find it an interesting line of reasoning; not that any devout Christian would accept it.

Originally posted by sonship

It is just a construction invented by people long after.

When Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians there were still a good portion of 500 people who were still remained alive at that time, who could testify that they had seen the resurrected Jesus Christ.

In the same letter Paul refers to a creedal like formula which he said h ...[text shortened]... elieved that. And they did so certainly within the breadth of a few decades from the events.[/b]

So you don't believe in prophecies either?

Originally posted by FMF
Does this ~ plus the fact that he knew he was going to rise from the dead and later ascend into heaven ~ not detract from the impressiveness of what he did, to some degree?

How so?

He was still a man. He was still anxious over going back to Jerusalem, knowing what was going to happen. He had last minute doubts, asking His Father to "take this cup" from him. But then He went back and faced His accusers, knowing what would happen. His faith is impressive, as is His sacrifice. Those who will be martyred in His name during the coming Tribulation will show similar faith.

Originally posted by divegeester
Not scripturally correct. Every indication in text was that he was "sent" and was "obedient unto death".

Exactly. Those who call it "suicide" are missing the point entirely.

Originally posted by Suzianne
How so?

He was still a man. He was still anxious over going back to Jerusalem, knowing what was going to happen. He had last minute doubts, asking His father to "take this cup" from him. But then He went back and faced His accusers, knowing what would happen. His faith is impressive, as is His sacrifice. Those who will be martyred in His name during the coming Tribulation will show similar faith.

The apocalypses you speak of is never going to happen.
Stop worrying about it and lighten up.

Originally posted by divegeester
There was a time when I wondered if the remaining disciples had murdered Judas in an act of revenge.

I also wonder even now, why the Romans needed Judas, any one of the Sanhedrin could have identified him.

From His time spent in the Temple when He was young, many of the Sanhedrin respected Jesus. Many spoke up at His trial, including Joseph of Arimathea, and were shouted down. I'm not sure there were any who would outright accuse Him of Blasphemy, except maybe Caiaphas. After all, his family held the monopoly on selling lambs for sacrifice at Passover.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The apocalypses you speak of is never going to happen.
Stop worrying about it and lighten up.

When that morning comes, perhaps you will remember my words and start worrying. Even then, there will be time to reconsider your stance and make yourself right with God. 😀

Originally posted by Suzianne
When that morning comes, perhaps you will remember my words and start worrying. Even then, there will be time to reconsider your stance and make yourself right with God. 😀

Suzianne... Please understand this.

First. If everything you said was true, I WILL STILL NEVER WORSHIP YOUR GOD UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE YOUR GOD IS EVIL.
So your snide comments about me 'changing my mind' are a total and insulting waste of time.

Second. Telling me that I have something to 'make up' with god is insulting and irritating.

Third. I believe that eternal life [in a literal sense] is eternal torture. Your religion has worse
than nothing to offer me. Given a choice between infinite or finite existence I choose finite.
Much as I would like a LONGER finite life than is generally available to a human being.

Fourth. I regard your god as absolutely evil and immoral. If I ever find out it exists I am
declaring war on it.

Fifth. and most importantly. I believe it is proven way way way way way beyond any and
all reasonable and rational doubt that your religion is total and utter rubbish.

So all you achieve by insulting me by telling me that I 'still have time to make peace with god'
before god decides to destroy a perfectly good biosphere for no good reason is irritating me and
making me think that you have lost your mind.

If that's your goal then well done.

If it's not... Maybe a rethink is in order.

Originally posted by caissad4
In the media we hear about "suicide by cop". That is to say, someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective.

Good thread. Food for thought.

Originally posted by caissad4
In the media we hear about "suicide by cop". That is to say, someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective. 🙄🙄🙄

If someone sacrifices their life in order to save others they are viewed as a hero.

I know of no cultures or religions which frown upon this form of suicide.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Suzianne... Please understand this.

First. If everything you said was true, I WILL STILL NEVER WORSHIP YOUR GOD UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE YOUR GOD IS EVIL.
So your snide comments about me 'changing my mind' are a total and insulting waste of time.

Second. Telling me that I have something to 'make up' with god is insulting and irritating.
...[text shortened]... your mind.

If that's your goal then well done.

If it's not... Maybe a rethink is in order.

Anger: there's an app for that.