Suicide by Romans ??

Originally posted by moonbus
"..someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective."

Jesus used the Romans as a tool to work God's will. He also used Judas. It was all part of a grandly o ...[text shortened]... -miraculously gotten himself down off the cross, too; but that wouldn't have fulfilled the Plan.

Judas was a hero, and should be considered a hero.
He was the one making prophecy work. Without him, or if he chickened out, there wouldn't be any crucifiction, Jesus would survive.
Judas was a hero!

Originally posted by moonbus
"..someone who deliberately provokes police into killing them usually by some type of confrontation. Didn't Jesus do something quite similar ? He supposedly knew that he was going to be killed and played right along. That is suicide from my perspective."

Jesus used the Romans as a tool to work God's will. He also used Judas. It was all part of a grandly o ...[text shortened]... -miraculously gotten himself down off the cross, too; but that wouldn't have fulfilled the Plan.

I agree, suicide is one word to describe the scenario but it is not the best descriptor as it does not complete it.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Judas was a hero, and should be considered a hero.
He was the one making prophecy work. Without him, or if he chickened out, there wouldn't be any crucifiction, Jesus would survive.
Judas was a hero!

No, he betrayed someone for money, hardly the actions of heroes.
In this life we are all given things, and we all have things taken away, what
we do under both conditions are our choices. Judas who stole money from
the common bag they had made a little more selling out the one he was
supposed to be following, his master. He betrayed trust, and was a thief,
again not a hero.
Kelly

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Judas was a hero, and should be considered a hero.
He was the one making prophecy work. Without him, or if he chickened out, there wouldn't be any crucifiction, Jesus would survive.
Judas was a hero!

Strangely enough he didn't view it that way did he. Shame you weren't there to give him some emotional support.

Originally posted by divegeester
Strangely enough he didn't view it that way did he. Shame you weren't there to give him some emotional support.

I actually feel sorry for him, think about it, Peter also betrayed Christ by
denying Jesus three times. Yet, Peter took his sin and came to God for
forgiveness, while Judas killed himself over his shame. One had a godly
sorrow, the other did not so one ended up forgiven, the other dead.
Kelly

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Judas was a hero, and should be considered a hero.
He was the one making prophecy work. Without him, or if he chickened out, there wouldn't be any crucifiction, Jesus would survive.
Judas was a hero!

Jorge Luis Borges wrote a story ("Three Versions of Judas" ) in which he maintains that Judas, not Jesus, was the true savior. A betrayer who really does hang himself for his treachery is the better and more humbling image of fallen man sacrificing himself for the more righteous Jesus--so the story goes.

Originally posted by moonbus

Jesus used the Romans as a tool to work God's will. He also used Judas. It was all part of a grandly orchestrated plan. As God incarnate, he could have magically-miraculously gotten himself down off the cross, too; but that wouldn't have fulfilled the Plan.[/b]

He used the Romans and Judas to commit suicide. Hence, Suicide by Romans. If he had actually gotten himself off the cross that would have made a great case for "god incarnate".

Originally posted by KellyJay
I actually feel sorry for him, think about it, Peter also betrayed Christ by
denying Jesus three times. Yet, Peter took his sin and came to God for
forgiveness, while Judas killed himself over his shame. One had a godly
sorrow, the other did not so one ended up forgiven, the other dead.
Kelly

Now we have 2 suicides. One is 'sanctioned" and the other is not. 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Originally posted by moonbus
Jorge Luis Borges wrote a story ("Three Versions of Judas" ) in which he maintains that Judas, not Jesus, was the true savior. A betrayer who really does hang himself for his treachery is the better and more humbling image of fallen man sacrificing himself for the more righteous Jesus--so the story goes.

Only in a fallen world could one who betrays another for money, after
stealing from him could be thought of as a hero. Judas did wasn't
sacrificing himself, his guilt overwhelmed him for the crimes he had done.
Judas saved no one, so exactly how could he be called a savior?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I actually feel sorry for him, think about it, Peter also betrayed Christ by
denying Jesus three times. Yet, Peter took his sin and came to God for
forgiveness, while Judas killed himself over his shame. One had a godly
sorrow, the other did not so one ended up forgiven, the other dead.
Kelly

There was a time when I wondered if the remaining disciples had murdered Judas in an act of revenge.

I also wonder even now, why the Romans needed Judas, any one of the Sanhedrin could have identified him.

Originally posted by caissad4
Now we have 2 suicides. One is 'sanctioned" and the other is not. 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Such is life isn't it? Like chess, you can have a pawn and two kings on the
board it can either be a win or a draw, it just depends on whose move it is.
People lay down their lives for others in times of battle and in life. I do
not call that suicide, but you may. Giving up one's life for another is not
the same as wanting to die so you force another to kill you.
Kelly

But still, in order for the prophecy would be true, Judas was needed, and he fulfilled his task perfectly. Did he knew the prophecy or not? Doesn't matter, he did it, he was forced to do it as his destiny, he had not free will to chose. The prophecy made him do it. He is a hero. Without him and his actions, Jesus would survive.

But, his shame was given to him from people who didn't understand his divine task. So he hanged himself.

All on condition that the bible is true to its letter. I just think it's a good story.

Originally posted by divegeester
There was a time when I wondered if the remaining disciples had murdered Judas in an act of revenge.

I also wonder even now, why the Romans needed Judas, any one of the Sanhedrin could have identified him.

I think the Sanhedrin needed to in their own eyes keep their hands clean,
at least they wanted an excuse that didn't completely rest with them. So
they found people to setup their dirty work, Judas to betray, and they
convinced the crowd to ask for Barabbas to be freed not Jesus. If you can
get the crowd to go along with your crimes it seems like you are doing the
right thing. It is only when confronted with truth and righteous will all our
deeds be shown for what they really are.
Kelly

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But still, in order for the prophecy would be true, Judas was needed, and he fulfilled his task perfectly. Did he knew the prophecy or not? Doesn't matter, he did it, he was forced to do it as his destiny, he had not free will to chose. The prophecy made him do it. He is a hero. Without him and his actions, Jesus would survive.

But, his shame was given ...[text shortened]... mself.

All on condition that the bible is true to its letter. I just think it's a good story.

His divine task? You can excuse every crime under the sun by saying that!
He did what did, his choices revealed his nature just as our choices reveal
ours. He had choices to be made, and he made them, it isn't divine
destiny when someone who is a thief steals when another predicts it will
happen, it is the thief making a choice they have been making all along.
You don't know that without his actions that Jesus would survive, for all
we know if not him then someone or something else would occur.
Kelly

What's the big deal with suicide anyway?