Taking the good

@fmf said
No. I am not "missing the point" at all.

If your life is one of "depravity" and "evil" and "abominations" ~ and "guilt" and "shame" ~ then so be it.

I call your outlook "misanthropic". Rather than "missing" the point, I think I am encapsulating it perfectly.

bump to fmf, notice what you are responding to

@fmf said
This riff you rely on is a dud.

If you do not have the ability to discern or evaluate the morality of something without reference to a God figure, then so be it.

But it's not a convincing stance you're taking if you believe that someone CANNOT differentiate between "good" and "evil" without reference to your particular God figure.

Exactly, without a reference point there isn't anything to reference and all you got
is you, you like it so it's good, you don't so it isn't, a reference point that changes
at your whim isn't a good reference point.

Fyodor Dostoyevsky, “Without God, anything is permissible.” That is, if God doesn’t exist, there is no such thing as an act that is off limits, immoral or evil.

@kellyjay said
Fyodor Dostoyevsky, “Without God, anything is permissible.” That is, if God doesn’t exist, there is no such thing as an act that is off limits, immoral or evil.

I don't think Dostoyevsky is right. Indeed, I see it as arrant nonsense ~ alol it is is a theist assertion that relies on circular logic ~ a favourite random situation that the dumb person's idea of a clever man, Jordan Peterson, is fond of. Also, this concept - that there can be no morality without a God figure - has been discussed here many times. I remember YOUR personal opinion that there can be no morality without YOUR God figure was dismantled.

@kellyjay said
Bump for fmf, notice what was said that you are responding to.

This is what I said: Everyone is so evil they fully deserve never-ending vengeful punishment [misanthropy]. Christianity = misanthropy-+ narcissism. This won't happen to me because of specific thoughts I have in my head about myself and my God figure [narcissism].

@kellyjay said
bump to fmf, notice what you are responding to

This is what I said: No. I am not "missing the point" at all. Yes. If your life is one of "depravity" and "evil" and "abominations" ~ and "guilt" and "shame" ~ then so be it. I call your outlook "misanthropic". Rather than "missing" the point, I think I am encapsulating it perfectly.

@kellyjay said
If you accept that then I suppose you would have been against the Nuremberg
trials after WW2, since those guys were only doing what they thought was right
at the time.

Once again, KellyJay. Don't just run away. What makes you think I would have been "against the Nuremberg trials"?

@fmf said
Once again, KellyJay. Don't just run away. What makes you think I would have been "against the Nuremberg trials"?

And then there's you.

@fmf said
I don't think Dostoyevsky is right. Indeed, I see it as arrant nonsense ~ alol it is is a theist assertion that relies on circular logic ~ a favourite random situation that the dumb person's idea of a clever man, Jordan Peterson, is fond of. Also, this concept - that there can be no morality without a God figure - has been discussed here many times. I remember YOUR personal opinion that there can be no morality without YOUR God figure was dismantled.

If you refuse to fix a point of reference you don't have one, anything can be
justified as you wish, all it takes is a little desire coupled with a little reasoning,
and you can justify anything you wish. Nothing circular about that, it is very
straightforward, you cannot be wrong if there isn't a right.

@fmf said
This is what I said: Everyone is so evil they fully deserve never-ending vengeful punishment [misanthropy]. Christianity = misanthropy-+ narcissism. This won't happen to me because of specific thoughts I have in my head about myself and my God figure [narcissism].

The great love God has shown us, Jesus laying down His life for us so we could be
forgiven to you isn't love, it isn't good. The greater the love God shows us the
more evil we become in rejecting Him.

@fmf said
This is what I said: No. I am not "missing the point" at all. Yes. If your life is one of "depravity" and "evil" and "abominations" ~ and "guilt" and "shame" ~ then so be it. I call your outlook "misanthropic". Rather than "missing" the point, I think I am encapsulating it perfectly.

I think you are making your point quite well, the good God shows us the more evil
you think God and what He has done is, you are encapsulating it perfectly.

@fmf said
Once again, KellyJay. Don't just run away. What makes you think I would have been "against the Nuremberg trials"?

Repost:

Your assertion that this is nothing but my accretion so it doesn't matter is just an
assertion too, nothing meaningful, it is no different than saying here is a binary
choice, I believe one of them is right. The truth isn't going to be altered by who
believes what so just looking at only the fact that assertions are being made that
oppose one another on any discussion means that either both are wrong, or one
is right, that much we can be certain about. What is good, is it only in each of our
eyes, only we get to say this is good for us, and your views about me don't matter?

If you accept that then I suppose you would have been against the Nuremberg
trials after WW2, since those guys were only doing what they thought was right
at the time.

A standard was being applied to people at the time who were only doing what was
expected of them in their society. The crimes they did were not counter to their
own cultural norms at the time.

So after the war, war crimes were applied as if they should have known. An intrinsic
good and evil perhaps, difficult to say you are evil, and what you did was evil, if
everyone gets to make it up as they go. Unless you want to say what might makes
right, then good and evil are just who can kick whose butt to force them into
submission.

Addtional:
Without a reference point that applies to all, who is to say they did wrong?

@kellyjay said
Repost:

Your assertion that this is nothing but my accretion so it doesn't matter is just an
assertion too, nothing meaningful, it is no different than saying here is a binary
choice, I believe one of them is right. The truth isn't going to be altered by who
believes what so just looking at only the fact that assertions are being made that
oppose one another on any di ...[text shortened]... mission.

Addtional:
Without a reference point that applies to all, who is to say they did wrong?

If you accept that then I suppose you would have been against the Nuremberg
trials after WW2, since those guys were only doing what they thought was right
at the time.

What makes you think I would have been "against the Nuremberg trials"?

@kellyjay said
I think you are making your point quite well, the good God shows us the more evil
you think God and what He has done is, you are encapsulating it perfectly.

If your life is one of "depravity" and "evil" and "abominations" and "guilt" and "shame" then so be it. Mine isn't.

@kellyjay said
If you refuse to fix a point of reference you don't have one, anything can be
justified as you wish, all it takes is a little desire coupled with a little reasoning,
and you can justify anything you wish.

If you think your moral compass is better than, say, mine, because you have a God figure, then I get it. If your moral compass tells you that your life is one of depravity, evil, abominations, guilt and shame, then I suggest you try your best to be a better person.

@fmf said
If you accept that then I suppose you would have been against the Nuremberg
trials after WW2, since those guys were only doing what they thought was right
at the time.

What makes you think I would have been "against the Nuremberg trials"?

Your refusal to say there is a good that applies to all, which isn't man-made. If it
is all man-made as you profess, why try them for what they did as if it were a
crime? They were only acting in their interest, doing what they thought was right,
therefore who are you to say otherwise? You see the ramification of your worldview
don't you, by make all things permissible without God you have justified everything?
You condemn them you are not acting consistently with what you profess.