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Originally posted by twhitehead"faith does both harm and good"
Belief in the unscientific is illogical.
[b]I still assert that faith does the individual no harm.
You are being illogical. Of course faith does both harm and good to the individual, the question is which outweighs the other. It is my claim that the harm is significant and outweighs the good on average.
There are many Christian Evolutionists ...[text shortened]... nds.
Just because they don't spout creationism doesn't mean they don't spout other rubbish.[/b]
so does chocolate. so does red meat.
Water is very good for you, but enough of it entering your lungs will get you a mild case of deadzies.
Just because they don't spout creationism doesn't mean they don't spout other rubbish.
which is true about every single sentient being, everywhere and ever.
Originally posted by ZahlanziYes, actually I can.
that is called being a human. every atheist does it too. you can't logically justify buying a luxury car, you can't justify jewelry, you can't justify love.
you have a philosphical system and you criticize someone that holds a different one.
Irrational belief is not a philosphical system.
And I notice that you do criticize creationists too, but the moment it comes to your beliefs you get all irrational.
Originally posted by Pianoman1Belief in a God, though misguide in my view, does no harm to the individual.
Belief in a God, though misguide in my view, does no harm to the individual. Indeed many people's lives are enriched through their belief in a God. Teaching Creationism to young children is immoral. Teaching children false scientific facts is just WRONG and flies against the whole philosophy of education.
Sexual abuse of children by priests, a warped view of sex in general (including but not limited to being gay), an irrational fear of going to hell, kneeling to and loving a god while accepting this god has murdered millions of beings in a rage, religious wars, chucking away all logic, reason and critical thinking because of the need for a god, heaven and purpose. No harm my a55.
Indeed many people's lives are enriched through their belief in a God.
Meaningless. Many people’s lives are enriched by creationism, atheism and drug abuse.
Teaching Creationism to young children is immoral. Teaching children false scientific facts is just WRONG and flies against the whole philosophy of education.
Teaching an OBVIOUS fairytale as the truth is also immoral and flies against the whole philosophy of education.
Originally posted by Great King RatI keep waiting for Mr. irrational himself to pipe in.
[b]Belief in a God, though misguide in my view, does no harm to the individual.
Sexual abuse of children by priests, a warped view of sex in general (including but not limited to being gay), an irrational fear of going to hell, kneeling to and loving a god while accepting this god has murdered millions of beings in a rage, religious wars, chuck ...[text shortened]... IOUS fairytale as the truth is also immoral and flies against the whole philosophy of education.[/b]
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes, actually I can.
Yes, actually I can.
[b]you have a philosphical system and you criticize someone that holds a different one.
Irrational belief is not a philosphical system.
And I notice that you do criticize creationists too, but the moment it comes to your beliefs you get all irrational.[/b]
so can i. the problem is that you don't recognize that my belief in God follows the same principles as one believing his friend will not boink one's wife behind his back.
we take many things on faith. mathematics is based on faith. and according to Godel, it will always be based on faith, no matter how much you improve it. science is based on the faith that what you read from the experiment is correct.
it is a shame that all you can understand from christianity, islam, buddhism, judaism, etc is the "irrational belief". these all are philosophical system that are pretty much the same with one another and to that of an atheist. but because we also believe in a higher power, you dismiss the whole philosophy.
"And I notice that you do criticize creationists too, but the moment it comes to your beliefs you get all irrational."
you mean how i constantly mention how my faith is unprovable, unfalsifiable and a matter of personal choice? you mean that kind of irrational?
there is a difference between believing something that hasn't been proven (yet) and believing something that is proven incorrect by countless scientific facts. care to rephrase your accusation as to be slightly more fair and logical? or you can only see in black and white?
Originally posted by Great King Rat"Sexual abuse of children [...] No harm my a55."
[b]Belief in a God, though misguide in my view, does no harm to the individual.
Sexual abuse of children by priests, a warped view of sex in general (including but not limited to being gay), an irrational fear of going to hell, kneeling to and loving a god while accepting this god has murdered millions of beings in a rage, religious wars, chuck ...[text shortened]... IOUS fairytale as the truth is also immoral and flies against the whole philosophy of education.[/b]
pedophile priests are pedophiles who happened to be priests.
belief in god doesn't mean you believe in all the genocide described in the bible.
belief in god doesn't mean you go jihading or crusading, in that case it was simply used as an excuse.
absolutely everything can be used to justify violence. liverpool fans use their love for liverpool to beat the snot out of manchester fans. moms fight over which one of their brats looks prettiest in a school play.
you don't dismiss something just because some asholes do not know how to use it.
"Meaningless. Many people’s lives are enriched by creationism, atheism and drug abuse."
so what are you arguing? that there is more than one thing that may enrich someone's life? yes, you are right, there is. that doesn't mean each of those things are meaningless.
"Teaching an OBVIOUS fairytale as the truth is also immoral and flies against the whole philosophy of education."
do you feel as strongly as this about washington's cherry tree story ? that too is an OBVIOUS fairytale.
my belief in God follows the same principles as one believing his friend will not boink one's wife behind his back.
This is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be "My belief in god follows the same principles as one believing in an invisible friend. I've never seen my friend, never heard of him, I only believe he exists because it says so in a book and because I've been told by others. And because I want to believe I have a friend. Further, I believe this friend shields me from harm, though never in ways that can be measured or proven."
Originally posted by sonhousewhy ? do you think you will be surprised about what he has to say? that you will conduct an intelligent discussion?
I keep waiting for Mr. irrational himself to pipe in.
how about you leave rj and robbie to their delusions and talk to me? if you are interested in a fair debate. don't act revolted at what they say if you insist of talking to the worst people faith have to offer. i don't give the nazis as example if i try to characterize the german people. how about you people do the same?
religion can be a good thing if you approach it with an open mind, if you don't take it in excess.
Originally posted by Great King Rat"this friend asks me to do good"
[b]my belief in God follows the same principles as one believing his friend will not boink one's wife behind his back.
This is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be "My belief in god follows the same principles as one believing in an invisible friend. I've never seen my friend, never heard of him, I only believe he exists because it says so ...[text shortened]... believe this friend shields me from harm, though never in ways that can be measured or proven."[/b]
"he cares for me"
yes, all true. though it is not an analogy but a description, you just substituted "God" with "invisible friend" in an attempt to ridicule.
the point with my analogy is that atheists may not believe in imaginary friends, but they believe in the love their wives supposedly have for them. they believe in mathematical axioms, they believe that the experiment results are accurate. and so on.
the position that all belief is irrational and that atheists are the enlightened ones because they don't believe is incorrect. what differs is the amount of faith each of us have and in what things.
Originally posted by ZahlanziJust want to say that it's indeed more interesting to talk to/argue with people like you and Divegeester than RJ and Robbie.
why ? do you think you will be surprised about what he has to say? that you will conduct an intelligent discussion?
how about you leave rj and robbie to their delusions and talk to me? if you are interested in a fair debate. don't act revolted at what they say if you insist of talking to the worst people faith have to offer. i don't give the nazis as e ...[text shortened]... igion can be a good thing if you approach it with an open mind, if you don't take it in excess.
Will respond later to your other points, have to do some work now.
Originally posted by ZahlanziSo you admit your earlier statement was false? Which is it?
so can i. the problem is that you don't recognize that my belief in God follows the same principles as one believing his friend will not boink one's wife behind his back.
And no, I do not recognize that your belief in God follows the same principles as believing in a friend.
mathematics is based on faith.
No, it isn't.
and according to Godel, it will always be based on faith,
Can you quote him on that please or justify such a claim by some other means?
science is based on the faith that what you read from the experiment is correct.
No, it isn't.
it is a shame that all you can understand from christianity, islam, buddhism, judaism, etc is the "irrational belief". these all are philosophical system that are pretty much the same with one another and to that of an atheist.
No, they arn't. They are pretty much based on irrational beliefs. Different irrational beliefs. And they are not 'philosophical systems', they are beliefs.
you dismiss the whole philosophy.
So what philosophy is that?
you mean how i constantly mention how my faith is unprovable, unfalsifiable and a matter of personal choice? you mean that kind of irrational?
Yes. Such claims apply equally well to a creationists beliefs yet you don't accept such excuses from them - hence my claim that you become irrational when it comes to your own beliefs.
there is a difference between believing something that hasn't been proven (yet) and believing something that is proven incorrect by countless scientific facts.
A few sentences ago you claimed nothing could be proven and everything was based on faith. You can't seem to keep your story straight.
care to rephrase your accusation as to be slightly more fair and logical? or you can only see in black and white?
You believe in a number of things that violate laws of science that are apparently universal. This is no different from a creationists beliefs.
Originally posted by ZahlanziJust picking up one point here...
"Sexual abuse of children [...] No harm my a55."
pedophile priests are pedophiles who happened to be priests.
belief in god doesn't mean you believe in all the genocide described in the bible.
belief in god doesn't mean you go jihading or crusading, in that case it was simply used as an excuse.
absolutely everything can be used to justify violence. ...[text shortened]... eel as strongly as this about washington's cherry tree story ? that too is an OBVIOUS fairytale.
absolutely everything can be used to justify violence. liverpool fans use their love for liverpool to beat the snot out of manchester fans. moms fight over which one of their brats looks prettiest in a school play.
The difference is that children are not taught in school that Liverpool are a better team and Man-U fans, by extension follow the 'wrong' team. If they were, I would hope you would be up in arms about it.
Teaching that a particular religion is 'True' promotes just such an 'us and them' attitude and belief, harms society and should not be allowed in the public schools.
--- Penguin
Originally posted by Pianoman1So what punishment do you suggest, burning people at the stake?
To teach young children today that the world is less than 10,000 years old amounts to the most awful abuse. To warp young minds with the staggeringly ignorant dictum that faith is more important than evidence is more harmful than sexual abuse. To deny the youth of today access to scientific empiricism because it doesn't corroborate a fable written by a wan ...[text shortened]... love of knowledge. I believe the teaching of Creationism in schools to be a very serious crime.
Kelly
Originally posted by Great King RatYou have deliberatley misunderstood me. I said "belief in a God does no harm to an individual".
[b]Belief in a God, though misguide in my view, does no harm to the individual.
Sexual abuse of children by priests, a warped view of sex in general (including but not limited to being gay), an irrational fear of going to hell, kneeling to and loving a god while accepting this god has murdered millions of beings in a rage, religious wars, chuck ...[text shortened]... IOUS fairytale as the truth is also immoral and flies against the whole philosophy of education.[/b]
I did not say "a warped view of sex in general (including but not limited to being gay), an irrational fear of going to hell, kneeling to and loving a god while accepting this god has murdered millions of beings in a rage, religious wars, chucking away all logic, reason and critical thinking because of the need for a god,"
All those are, of course, extremely harmful, but they are not practised by all theists. A belief in God does not automatically make you a sexual pervert etc.
Putting deliberately false information into children's brains is abuse.