Teaching Creationism is a crime.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why ? do you think you will be surprised about what he has to say? that you will conduct an intelligent discussion?


how about you leave rj and robbie to their delusions and talk to me? if you are interested in a fair debate. don't act revolted at what they say if you insist of talking to the worst people faith have to offer. i don't give the nazis as e ...[text shortened]... igion can be a good thing if you approach it with an open mind, if you don't take it in excess.

I don't deny there CAN be good in religion, it keeps people who might otherwise decide they can boink their buddies' wives and so forth but why does it have to a belief in a higher power to do that?

For instance, you are down and out, you go to a Salvation Army refuge and find they will give you food but if they find out you are gay, out you go. But if you are not gay, in you come but first a word from our sponsor....

Why can't there be a helping organization that just bloody helps people without having to have a reference to a so-called higher power?

It is my position that all the commandments in the bible and Quran were written by men with no help needed from a god.

That shows that men can come up with moral codes all by themselves with no outside help needed.

It is the same argument about the pyramids, that mankind is WAY too stupid to have EVER built the pyramids all by himself, therefore they had help, therefore ALIENS EXIST and they came down to Earth with nothing better to do than to help ancient men build a gigantic monument to one man.

To me that is the same argument that says mankind is WAY too stupid to have EVER come up with the moral codes in the various religious texts ALL BY THEMSELVES and therefore god exists.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
A session with a psychiatrist.

That is what you want, if you disagree with how the beginning of this
universe actually started it is an issue for psychiatrist?
Kelly

Originally posted by Pianoman1
You have deliberatley misunderstood me. I said "belief in a God does no harm to an individual".

I did not say "a warped view of sex in general (including but not limited to being gay), an irrational fear of going to hell, kneeling to and loving a god while accepting this god has murdered millions of beings in a rage, religious wars, chucking away all l ...[text shortened]... a sexual pervert etc.

Putting deliberately false information into children's brains is abuse.

"Putting deliberately false information into children's brains is abuse."

So those elected to office who made claims about our new healthcare law
are guilty of abuse, because we were told about the new healthcare law
was supposed to do a lot of things, and it isn't doing what they said instead
it is actually doing the exact opposite.

Now false information means what you say isn't true, it may not be a lie,
because you may honestly believe it to be true. So according to you being
wrong, or disagreeing with you a form of abuse.

I submit you don't know how everything started, you see processes you
believe have been going on for some time now, but you don't know how
or why it all began. If we find what you believe about beginning isn't true
does that mean you now need help to get your mind right?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
That is what you want, if you disagree with how the beginning of this
universe actually started it is an issue for psychiatrist?
Kelly

It's not a question of disagreeing. It is empirical scientific fact that the universe started some 4.7 billion years ago. To say that the world is only 10,000 years old is rather like saying that the moon is made of cheese. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, so a session with a psychiatrist would help.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
It's not a question of disagreeing. It is empirical scientific fact that the universe started some 4.7 billion years ago. To say that the world is only 10,000 years old is rather like saying that the moon is made of cheese. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, so a session with a psychiatrist would help.

I'll ask you, do you know how and why everything began?
Kelly

Originally posted by Pianoman1
It's not a question of disagreeing. It is empirical scientific fact that the universe started some 4.7 billion years ago. To say that the world is only 10,000 years old is rather like saying that the moon is made of cheese. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, so a session with a psychiatrist would help.

I'm completely fine with telling everyone that science suggests the universe
started billions of years ago. That doesn't mean I also cannot also say that
I believe the universe started when God created it, because science cannot
see God even evidence for God in my opinion. People who do not believe
in God will always find a way to dismiss anything that may suggest God is
real.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"Putting deliberately false information into children's brains is abuse."

So those elected to office who made claims about our new healthcare law
are guilty of abuse, because we were told about the new healthcare law
was supposed to do a lot of things, and it isn't doing what they said instead
it is actually doing the exact opposite.

Now false info ...[text shortened]... ieve about beginning isn't true
does that mean you now need help to get your mind right?
Kelly

Being British I know nothing of your Obamacare.
Kelly Jay, I am not talking about opinion. You may care to believe the moon is made of cheese, but it has been proved not to be the case. Likewise, you may care to believe the universe was created in 6 days some 10,000 years ago, but it has been proved otherwise. It's not my opinion, it is science. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, scientific fact trumps faith every time. Charles Darwin proved beyond doubt that life evolved over a very long period of time by natural selection. You may believe otherwise, but you do not have the science to prove your point.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll ask you, do you know how and why everything began?
Kelly

No, of course not. When I am in the valley of darkness I look up to the top of a hill and ask people there what they see. You ask a very interesting question: why did everything begin? I will agree that science cannot answer that question yet. It will, but at present we do not know. However, that does not necessarily prove the existence of God.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
No, of course not. When I am in the valley of darkness I look up to the top of a hill and ask people there what they see. You ask a very interesting question: why did everything begin? I will agree that science cannot answer that question yet. It will, but at present we do not know. However, that does not necessarily prove the existence of God.

I'm not claiming that it proves God; however, you seem to be suggesting
that God couldn't do it a few thousand years ago, and to even believe that
and pass that along to one's kids is a crime.
Kelly

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Being British I know nothing of your Obamacare.
Kelly Jay, I am not talking about opinion. You may care to believe the moon is made of cheese, but it has been proved not to be the case. Likewise, you may care to believe the universe was created in 6 days some 10,000 years ago, but it has been proved otherwise. It's not my opinion, it is science. Sorry to ...[text shortened]... tural selection. You may believe otherwise, but you do not have the science to prove your point.

Science is a GREAT thing, I couldn't do what I do for a living if it were not
for science. That does not mean that science sees everything or always
gets it right.

Moon made of cheese, please! I don't care what you believe about the start
of the universe; however, the one thing I do believe to be factual is that no
matter how you think it started is a matter of belief. You may even believe
in God it does not matter, but if you did, your belief about God may have
God able to do anything or is limited, that too is your belief.

For you to suggest that anyone who teaches their beliefs to their kids is a
crime is very nasty to me. Matters of faith, are just that faith, if they could
be proven it wouldn't be faith now would it?

You can BELIEVE that life evolved over time too, but that is a theory even
if your a true believer.
Kelly

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Putting deliberately false information into children's brains is abuse.

Do you accept that most theists try to pass on their religion to their children?
Do you accept that there are children that attend both Anglican and Catholic Churches?
Surely both are cases of putting false information into children's brains? So now the question is whether or not and to what extent it is deliberately false.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I don't deny there CAN be good in religion, it keeps people who might otherwise decide they can boink their buddies' wives and so forth but why does it have to a belief in a higher power to do that?

For instance, you are down and out, you go to a Salvation Army refuge and find they will give you food but if they find out you are gay, out you go. But if ...[text shortened]... with the moral codes in the various religious texts ALL BY THEMSELVES and therefore god exists.

you view god only in terms of "what have you done for me lately, God?"


and of course, many theists view him like that. they pray to god for stuff. they thank god for the good stuff. they complain to god for the bad.
"God, gimme!!".


i view god as a father figure. he watches, get sad when you fail, happy when you succeed, but doesn't intervene. it is my life to live, my failures are my own, and so are my successes.

think of god as the silent partner in the business that is your life. he made an initial investment, but otherwise allows you to manage it yourself. after you die, you demonstrate how his investment payed off.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Science is a GREAT thing, I couldn't do what I do for a living if it were not
for science. That does not mean that science sees everything or always
gets it right.

Moon made of cheese, please! I don't care what you believe about the start
of the universe; however, the one thing I do believe to be factual is that no
matter how you think it started is ...[text shortened]... IEVE that life evolved over time too, but that is a theory even
if your a true believer.
Kelly

For you to suggest that anyone who teaches their beliefs to their kids is a crime is very nasty to me. Matters of faith, are just that faith, if they could be proven it wouldn't be faith now would it?

But given that they are 'just faith', to teach one particular religion as true in public schools should not be allowed. That is the point made by King Rat in response to the OP (which was talking about one of the religious beliefs, Young Earth Creationism, that some schools are pushing).

--- Penguin

Originally posted by KellyJay
For you to suggest that anyone who teaches their beliefs to their kids is a
crime is very nasty to me. Matters of faith, are just that faith, if they could
be proven it wouldn't be faith now would it?

The point is, Kelly, they are not teaching beliefs (although even that is distasteful to me), they are teaching LIES. Creationism isn't a belief - it's a delusionary lie. IT SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE!! There is no room for opinion or belief when something is untrue. And to teach untruths to children is abhorrent to me. (I have taught 4 - 13 year olds for some 30 years now and believe passionately that children are not just empty vessels into which you can cram whatever beliefs you want to, but they have to be taught to think independently and freely)

Originally posted by Penguin
But given that they are 'just faith', to teach one particular religion as true [b]in public schools should not be allowed. That is the point made by King Rat in response to the OP (which was talking about one of the religious beliefs, Young Earth Creationism, that some schools are pushing).

--- Penguin[/b]

Not the point I was making in my OP, but I agree with what you say.