Originally posted by Pianoman1ooo i can do this too.
Challenging to all basic core assumptions, I agree, but I stand by my assertion. Sexual abuse is vile, humiliating, dehumanising, traumatising and all the rest of it, BUT filling children's minds with lies will last to the grave and perpetuate ignorance and stupidity which will close them off to new experiences.
what happens now in syria is just as bad as the holocaust.
the gulf war was just as bad as WWII.
a mcdonalds menu is just as bad as ingesting cyanide.
jon bon jovi is just as talentless as bieber.
how about you do the right thing and retract your statement. it was offensive to both theists and victims of sexual abuse.
"oh no, you learned some false things, just like anyone watching jersey shore or fox news, you poor thing, let me stop talking about my incredibly traumatic experience and focus on you" said no rape victim ever
Originally posted by KellyJayScience makes predictions that can be checked!
Oh there are predictions about the world around us, and they are not
pretty.
Kelly
eg If General Relativity predicts a perceived change in Mercury's orbit from
the Newtonian Model then that can be tested. And when that prediction is
shown to be true we have a useful model.
Now if we can predict something from the existence of a god, then show that the prediction is correct - we have something useful.
BUT WE DONT
Originally posted by wolfgang59How about the end earth and universe going up in flames? Not to
Science makes predictions that can be checked!
eg If General Relativity predicts a perceived change in Mercury's orbit from
the Newtonian Model then that can be tested. And when that prediction is
shown to be true we have a useful model.
Now if we can predict something from the existence of a god, then show that the prediction is correct - we have something useful.
[b]BUT WE DONT[/b]
mention all the death and destruction right before the end?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayNo evidence of either of those occurring.
How about the end earth and universe going up in flames? Not to
mention all the death and destruction right before the end?
Kelly
This page has some nice statistics detailing mortality in a few western European countries of the last few hundred years. The trend is downward. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/human_pop/human_pop.html
Interestingly, the 7th graph down on this page shows mortality rates going down since 1950 but increasing slightly again during the next 40 years. http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/2008/03/mec-technophysi.html#.UmjWnFNBNRE
Here's an analysis of 'violent crime' since the 13th century in Europe. Pretty much every graph in there is trending down. http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/history/postgraduate/ma_studies/mamodules/hi971/topics/interpersonal/long-term-historical-trends-of-violent-crime.pdf
Here is an abstract of an article that says the long-term trend in violence is downwards, although it does suggest that we may be in an upward blip at the moment, as we have been on several earlier occasions. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1147382?uid=3738032&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102802865071
Unfortunately, I have not found anything yet on the long-term trends in war so I can't support my assertion that wars are on the decline with any specific evidence.
So I think the above demonstrates that there is less death and destruction now then there was 100 years ago and also less (as a proportion of population) than 500 years ago.
And the universe is not currently going up in flames (Australian bush fires notwithstanding)
When no evidence is found supporting a scientific theory, that theory tends to be dropped fairly quickly. Not so with unscientific theories.
--- Penguin
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Originally posted by ZahlanziI added numbers to refer to your post.... EDIT: but see now that that was quite useless :-)
"Sexual abuse of children [...] No harm my a55."
[b](1) pedophile priests are pedophiles who happened to be priests.
belief in god doesn't mean you believe in all the genocide described in the bible.
belief in god doesn't mean you go jihading or crusading, in that case it was simply used as an excuse.
absolutely everything can be used to justif ...[text shortened]... eel as strongly as this about washington's cherry tree story ? that too is an OBVIOUS fairytale.[/b]
(1) The fact remains that for A LOT of people the belief in a god (either their own or someone elses) has very negative consequence. The OPs harsh criticism against creationism while treating "regular" religions and beliefs as merely misguided and nothing more than that is a gross oversimplification. Even if you take away all the points that I made (sexual abuse and what not) all religions are still built on lies, which seems to be the OPs main problem with creationism.
(2) The OP answered "Indeed many people's lives are enriched through their belief in a God" to my question "Why just creationism? Why not faith in god(s) altogether?". That's a useless argument because creationists will feel the same way about their religion. And many atheists feel that understanding that there is no god is an enrichment of a previously theistic life.
I'm not arguing that the enrichment itself is meaningless, I'm arguing that not attacking something (regular religion in this case) because it is perceived as an enrichment is silly.
(3) I hardly know anything about Washington's tree and know even less about how that story is being told and "experienced" (in America I presume) so I can't comment. Please elaborate if you like.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59I don't think anyone expects to find scientific evidence for a god, except maybe in the patterns being uncovered by the CMB recently, some could say that is the fingerprint of god, but even that would be pure conjecture, the evidence of the circles found there could just as likely be another bubble universe banging up against ours as it to be a fingerprint of god, so there will never be much in the way of scientific evidence for god.
Science makes predictions that can be checked!
eg If General Relativity predicts a perceived change in Mercury's orbit from
the Newtonian Model then that can be tested. And when that prediction is
shown to be true we have a useful model.
Now if we can predict something from the existence of a god, then show that the prediction is correct - we have something useful.
[b]BUT WE DONT[/b]
Of course, the faithful will point to every mysterious healing as the hand of god at work, while they ignore millions of deaths at the hands of extremists so there will ALWAYS be perceived evidence of a god.
It just goes to show you how duped billions of people are over the existence of a god.
Whether there is or is not a god, it is extremely clear it has a strict hands off policy so even if there is a god it won't be helping us fix any of our boo boo's like a mother comforting her child with a scraped knee while applying a bandage.
Originally posted by Pianoman1Seeing that you apologised for that rather rash statement which favoured sexual abuse over religion .. [gives me shivers just to write it, cant understand how you can think it], let me ask a question. What percentage of the religious that you know are ignorant, stupid and closed off from new experiences?
Challenging to all basic core assumptions, I agree, but I stand by my assertion. Sexual abuse is vile, humiliating, dehumanising, traumatising and all the rest of it, BUT filling children's minds with lies will last to the grave and perpetuate ignorance and stupidity which will close them off to new experiences.
So instead of calling it a 'crime' first provide some proof.
Originally posted by PenguinThis is nice. Im interested in researching this kind of thing. Im one of those 'religious nutters' that disagree with the typical view that the world is on a downward slide. Anywhere you look things are changing for the better. I just need to get more facts on these trends. I may start a thread on this sometime later on; hope you participate.
No evidence of either of those occurring.
This page has some nice statistics detailing mortality in a few western European countries of the last few hundred years. The trend is downward. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/human_pop/human_pop.html
Interestingly, the 7th graph down on this page shows mortality rates going down s ...[text shortened]... hat theory tends to be dropped fairly quickly. Not so with unscientific theories.
--- Penguin
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Originally posted by Rajk999If we are going to have a sensible debate, please do not misquote me. I did not say it was the religious who are ignorant and stupid and closed off to new experiences (although I do know many theists who have a rather simple, faith-based approach to answering the big questions), but the clearly deluded believers in new earth Creationism who brainwash young children's brains with deliberate lies. I do not think I have ever met a Creationist (luckily they are comparatively rare in UK), but I am horrified by the extent to which it has taken a stranglehold over free thinking in the US.
What percentage of the religious that you know are ignorant, stupid and closed off from new experiences?
Originally posted by Pianoman1As am I. I don't think people outside the US can comprehend how deep this delusion is in US society. I think one poll had it that 43% of the US thinks the Earth is 6000 years old. This goes WAY beyond just a few nutters like RJ screaming from the rooftops. This makes it policy changing scary. I am sure that if nearly half the US is that crazy, then in some parts of the country the percentage is closer to 90% who think that way which can sway local elections, then state, then federal.
If we are going to have a sensible debate, please do not misquote me. I did not say it was the religious who are ignorant and stupid and closed off to new experiences (although I do know many theists who have a rather simple, faith-based approach to answering the big questions), but the clearly deluded believers in new earth Creationism who brainwash young ...[text shortened]... I am horrified by the extent to which it has taken a stranglehold over free thinking in the US.
THAT is the scary part here in the US. Not that a few thousand nutters believe in creationism. It is in the MILLIONS here in the US.
Remember, our country was founded on religion, people who had their own beliefs that went against the church of England or the Vatican and came here to start their own brand of religious persecution that featured such niceties as burning at the stake of suspected witches and so forth.
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Originally posted by Pianoman1Im a religious nutcase but Im still smart enough to notice that you sidestepped the question. Are you going to answer it?
If we are going to have a sensible debate, please do not misquote me. I did not say it was the religious who are ignorant and stupid and closed off to new experiences (although I do know many theists who have a rather simple, faith-based approach to answering the big questions), but the clearly deluded believers in new earth Creationism who brainwash young ...[text shortened]... I am horrified by the extent to which it has taken a stranglehold over free thinking in the US.
Originally posted by KellyJayjohn was senile when he wrote that. explanation given. much more likely than the god of love needing to end the world in pain and destruction.
How about the end earth and universe going up in flames? Not to
mention all the death and destruction right before the end?
Kelly
Originally posted by Pianoman1I do not think I have ever met a Creationist (luckily they are comparatively rare in UK)
If we are going to have a sensible debate, please do not misquote me. I did not say it was the religious who are ignorant and stupid and closed off to new experiences (although I do know many theists who have a rather simple, faith-based approach to answering the big questions), but the clearly deluded believers in new earth Creationism who brainwash young ...[text shortened]... I am horrified by the extent to which it has taken a stranglehold over free thinking in the US.
I have. A proper full signed up Young Earth Creationist. And he worked at a nuclear power station! Fun times. Unfortunately we were doing some work for said power station so he was effectively the customer and I couldn't wind him up too much.
--- Penguin.