1. Joined
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    10 Oct '11 01:41
    Wrong forum? Nope. I would like to focus on the controversy with the church during the time of the American Revolution. Some, like John Wesley, objected to the revolt comparing the event to rebellion comparable to witchcraft. His argument cited the mandate by scripture to "submit" to the government of the land.

    Most, like myself, have always thought of the Founding Fathers as inspired by God, however, this recent discovery of mine is rather interesting and worth debating I think.
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 01:52
    Originally posted by whodey
    Wrong forum? Nope. I would like to focus on the controversy with the church during the time of the American Revolution. Some, like John Wesley, objected to the revolt comparing the event to rebellion comparable to witchcraft. His argument cited the mandate by scripture to "submit" to the government of the land.

    Most, like myself, have always thought of ...[text shortened]... God, however, this recent discovery of mine is rather interesting and worth debating I think.
    Before I get into this, can I get your take on "witchcraft"?

    Historically this sort of thing (whatever was called "witchcraft" ), has been considered taboo and often out and out evil.
    I dont think this is the case, but in some people's minds this sort of misunderstanding endures.
  3. Joined
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    10 Oct '11 02:34
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Before I get into this, can I get your take on "witchcraft"?

    Historically this sort of thing (whatever was called "witchcraft" ), has been considered taboo and often out and out evil.
    I dont think this is the case, but in some people's minds this sort of misunderstanding endures.
    I believe the Bible refers to rebellion as witchcraft, which is why Wesley used the term.
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 02:52
    Originally posted by whodey
    I believe the Bible refers to rebellion as witchcraft, which is why Wesley used the term.
    Ok,ok. But what do you think? Is witchcraft bad? And if so, why? Examples please...

    (I realize that this is a side issue and I dont expect you to answer those questions if you dont want to, it just means that I will opt out of this thread)
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Oct '11 03:18
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Ok,ok. But what do you think? Is witchcraft bad? And if so, why? Examples please...

    (I realize that this is a side issue and I dont expect you to answer those questions if you dont want to, it just means that I will opt out of this thread)
    If it is rebellion against God, it is sin. Sin is bad.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 03:32
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If it is rebellion against God, it is sin. Sin is bad.
    Sin is God-eclpising. There is no good and bad in the big "Good" that is "God" .

    It's all good, even that which we percieve to be bad.

    It is the dying ego that squirms and wriggles and tries to invent illogical scenarios to justify it's, often counterintuitive, actions.

    When the ego is happy,"God" is sad and vice versa.
    "God" does have a sense of humour but often it eludes us because we are still not clear on what the ego is, which is one cause of suffering.
  7. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 03:33
    Anyway, sorry whodey, please continue this point as I am interested in this stuff.
  8. Joined
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    10 Oct '11 03:47
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Ok,ok. But what do you think? Is witchcraft bad? And if so, why? Examples please...

    (I realize that this is a side issue and I dont expect you to answer those questions if you dont want to, it just means that I will opt out of this thread)
    Witchcraft is the attempt to use the spiritual world, apart from God, to manipulate the world around you.

    In short, you are delving into a world outside your own knowledge and power, and at the same time thumbing your nose at a God who warns us not to do these things.

    It's kinda like your parent telling ya not to play out in the street.
  9. Joined
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    10 Oct '11 03:48
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If it is rebellion against God, it is sin. Sin is bad.
    So what say you? Was the Revolution "sinful"?
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 04:011 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Witchcraft is the attempt to use the spiritual world, apart from God, to manipulate the world around you.

    In short, you are delving into a world outside your own knowledge and power, and at the same time thumbing your nose at a God who warns us not to do these things.

    It's kinda like your parent telling ya not to play out in the street.
    Yes, I see. But when the kids grow up do the rules not change or go out the window altogether?

    I dont see a problem with trying to manipulate the world around you, if it is in the best interests of everyone.

    (Basically, I do agree with you,ie. that people shouldn't dabble in witchcraft, but having said that there will always be exceptions, and these exceptions should not be discarded)

    Also I dont see how you could successfully "use the spiritual world" without "God". After all, all is "God", is it not?
  11. Joined
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    10 Oct '11 04:082 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Yes, I see. But when the kids grow up do the rules not change or go out the window altogether?

    I dont see a problem with trying to manipulate the world around you, if it is in the best interests of everyone.

    (Basically, I do agree with you,ie. that people shouldn't dabble in witchcraft, but having said that there will always be exceptions, and the ...[text shortened]... successfully "use the spiritual world" without "God". After all, all is "God", is it not?
    When the kid grows up hopefully he can piece together why it is not a good idea not to play out in the street instead of merely taking his parents word for it.

    When I speak of manipulation, I am not speaking of the world at large, rather, I'm talking about manipulating free will for your own personal gain. This means manipulating the spiritual realm who has free will as well as those in the material world you wish to manipulate. Unfortunately, we have a tendency to rationalize what we are doing is "good" for everyone, when in reality, its just what we want to do and we don't wish to feel guilty about it. It's li9ke a mobster telling you right before he is going to kill you, "Its just business".

    I knew an atheist who once lived with someone who practiced some form of witchcraft. At first he thought it was all a joke until one day he saw things moving around the room that should not be. Needless to say, he left ASAP and still is an atheist. Go figure.
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    10 Oct '11 04:13
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Also I dont see how you could successfully "use the spiritual world" without "God". After all, all is "God", is it not?[/b]
    The key word is "successfully" Essentially if you dabble in the spiritual world without God, you are using spiritual forces who do not answer to God. Those spiritual forces that are aligned with God take orders from him and him only. Therefore, to try and side step the person they take orders from is futile. What you are essentially dealing with at that point are entities at war with God. At first you may think that you are using them when, in reality, you are just a pawn yourself in a war you don't quite understand.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 04:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    When the kid grows up hopefully he can piece together why it is not a good idea not to play out in the street instead of merely taking his parents word for it.

    When I speak of manipulation, I am not speaking of the world at large, rather, I'm talking about manipulating free will for your own personal gain. There is a difference. Unfortunately, we have a ...[text shortened]... that should not be. Needless to say, she left ASAP and still is an atheist. Go figure.
    Well it sounds as if witchcraft is not for you then.

    I have met a woman calling herself a witch.
    She has had a very positive influence on my life to this day and I only spent a few days with her some 16 years ago.

    She was different to others I had met who claimed to practice witchcraft, she was a doer not a talker, mostly.
    She invited me back to her place, a squat, which was a 2 hour walk.
    When we got there and had a drink of water she suggested we meditate for awhile. So i did.
    As I was meditating and my "focus point" was rising through my chakras, she guided me and told me where I was at (ie. when my focus was on my belly she pointed to it and then proceeded to inform me as it rose to each new chakra. I finally ended up out of my body, just above my head. After this I was really shocked in a weird good way and I dont know how she could've known where my focus was,(maybe just a guess, but a very good one if it was a guess).)
  14. Joined
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    10 Oct '11 04:18
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Well it sounds as if witchcraft is not for you then.

    I have met a woman calling herself a witch.
    She has had a very positive influence on my life to this day and I only spent a few days with her some 16 years ago.

    She was different to others I had met who claimed to practice witchcraft, she was a doer not a talker, mostly.
    She invited me back ...[text shortened]... uld've known where my focus was,(maybe just a guess, but a very good one if it was a guess).)
    For someone to choose something, it must be enticing. If there is no enticement, people would simply never have a reason to try it.

    For example, do you know of very many people who stick their head in a fan?
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '11 04:19
    Originally posted by whodey
    The key word is "successfully" Essentially if you dabble in the spiritual world without God, you are using spiritual forces who do not answer to God. Those spiritual forces that are aligned with God take orders from him and him only. Therefore, to try and side step the person they take orders from is futile. What you are essentially dealing with at that p ...[text shortened]... sing them when, in reality, you are just a pawn yourself in a war you don't quite understand.
    Yes, I understand.

    I would like to believe that "God" guides me in my actions, but sometimes, when I am thinking too much , I can get confused.
    If that happens , I need to "settle" my mind and then my mind becomes clear once again.
    It's always the second thought that is the wrong one. "God" always has the first word - you just need to listen.
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