The American Revolution

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Ok, first of all, i dont see how or why the question is relevant and secondly, both you
and RJH have ignored the Biblical texts that were provided. It was these texts that
formed the basis of my argument, please make reference to those.

No, I did not ignore the text which you quoted and my reply was in
response to you trying to identify your dogma with it and condemn
my forefathers for their rebellion against the illegal act of the British
government. Here is the text in question you quoted:

(Mark 12:14-17) . . .Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not? Shall we
pay, or shall we not pay?” Detecting their hypocrisy, he said to them:
“Why do you put me to the test? Bring me a denarius to look at.” They
brought one. And he said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?"
They said to him: “Caesar’s.” Jesus then said: “Pay back Caesar’s things to
Caesar, but God’s things to God.” . . .

This actually starts with verse 13, indicating they were again trying to trick
Him, but apparently He tricked you.

Due to their rebellion against God, He had allowed them to come under
Roman rule and the paying of taxes to another government was a reminder
of that. The fact that they could produce a Roman coin and were using it
for their benefit showed this was a debt they owed to Caesar and they must
pay it back.

The big difference, that you do not understand, between that situation and
that of the founding fathers of America is that Americans were at that time
British citizens, who were not getting the benefit of representation as citizens.

Originally posted by whodey
So the mandate to pay your taxes means that God views revolution to be sinful? They are not necessarily contradictory in my view.

It is like many other things in the Bible, it requires context and the ability to not put God in a box. For example, who woulda thunk God would have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? It all seems contradictory does it not? ...[text shortened]... he nation of Israel being asked to conquer the Holy Land. It is up to you I guess to ignore it.

ignore what Whodey? the dictates of ones conscience? how can you put that in a
box? lets look at the text again,

(Romans 13:1-7) 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for
there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their
relative positions by God.  Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a
stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will
receive judgment to themselves. . . .There is therefore compelling reason for
you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on
account of [your] conscience.  For that is why you are also paying taxes; for they
are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose.  Render to all their
dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the
tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such
honor.

Did you notice whodey, he who takes a stand against the existing authority does
what? that is correct, he takes a stance against the arrangement of God. Now
unless you have evidence that God directed the founding fathers to foment a
revolution then they are guilty of having taken a stance against the existing
authority, in direct opposition to the admonition given by Paul. Citing the Israelites
conquering of the land of Cannan does not negate this. Secondly there is an even
more compelling reason, that is, one of conscience. If a Christians conscience is
working, he will not transgress the Biblical admonition to remain politically neutral,
nor will he be induced by any reason to take a stance against the 'arrangement of
God'. Citing Abraham's prophetic drama does not negate this and is hardly relevant.


(Proverbs 24:21-22) . . .My son, fear Jehovah and the king. With those who are for
a change, do not intermeddle.  For their disaster will arise so suddenly, that who is
aware of the extinction of those who are for a change?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ignore what Whodey? the dictates of ones conscience? how can you put that in a
box? lets look at the text again,

(Romans 13:1-7) 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for
there is no authority except by God; [b]the existing authorities stand placed in their
relative positions by God.  Therefore he who opposes th ...[text shortened]... will arise so suddenly, that who is
aware of the extinction of those who are for a change?

Do you think God had nothing to do with the founding of America?
Why do you think so may British citizens choose to leave Britian
and travel the dangerous ocean for long periods of time to get
to another land?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Do you think God had nothing to do with the founding of America?
Why do you think so may British citizens choose to leave Britian
and travel the dangerous ocean for long periods of time to get
to another land?

Let me see, Irish famine, Highland clearances, religious persecution. Its a pity they
didn't act like Christians once they got there, isn't it. In yo face RJH!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Let me see, Irish famine, Highland clearances, religious persecution. Its a pity they
didn't act like Christians once they got there, isn't it. In yo face RJH!

You still do not understand the verses you quoted, even after I explained
it to you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You still do not understand the verses you quoted, even after I explained
it to you.

what did you explain to me RJH, for the life of me i cannot find any explanation. Ok , i see it now, i only saw your last text, let me see . . .

Originally posted by RJHinds
No, I did not ignore the text which you quoted and my reply was in
response to you trying to identify your dogma with it and condemn
my forefathers for their rebellion against the illegal act of the British
government. Here is the text in question you quoted:

(Mark 12:14-17) . . .Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not? Shall we
pay, or shall ...[text shortened]... at that time
British citizens, who were not getting the benefit of representation as citizens.

your nationality has no bearing on the fact that you rebelled against the existing
authority, no bearing whatsoever, you did it, you took a stand against the arrangement
of God and that is final.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yes, I see. But when the kids grow up do the rules not change or go out the window altogether?

I dont see a problem with trying to manipulate the world around you, if it is in the best interests of everyone.

(Basically, I do agree with you,ie. that people shouldn't dabble in witchcraft, but having said that there will always be exceptions, and the ...[text shortened]... successfully "use the spiritual world" without "God". After all, all is "God", is it not?

No, there are not always exceptions for everything.
Somethings should never be choosen to happen, yet they are.
Somethings should always be choosen to happen, yet they are not.
Saying that does not mean that there are acceptable exceptions, only that
which should or shouldn't happen don't always by someone's choice.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
your nationality has no bearing on the fact that you rebelled against the existing
authority, no bearing whatsoever, you did it, you took a stand against the arrangement
of God and that is final.

I see it as a stand for right and justice, not a stand against God.

P.S. All the British government had to do was treat us right and
give us our proper representation and the taxes could be adjusted
accordingly and we could have lived in peace. But they chose to
send the "Red Coats" over here to attack us.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I see it as a stand for right and justice, not a stand against God.

P.S. All the British government had to do was treat us right and
give us our proper representation and the taxes could be adjusted
accordingly and we could have lived in peace. But they chose to
send the "Red Coats" over here to attack us.

Well why is that not a surprise RJH you can attempt to justify just about anything, were
the Romans just? perhaps they were righteous? not on your life, they were cruel and
licentious and extortioners. Yet the Christ himself stated that it belonged to Caesar
and should be given to him, regardless of whether it was right or just. Consider your
point, refuted.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
your nationality has no bearing on the fact that you rebelled against the existing
authority, no bearing whatsoever, you did it, you took a stand against the arrangement
of God and that is final.

Do you believe that it would have been better if we didn't have a democratic system and we were still living under the rule of hereditary monarchs and noblemen?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Well why is that not a surprise RJH you can attempt to justify just about anything, were
the Romans just? perhaps they were righteous? not on your life, they were cruel and
licentious and extortioners. Yet the Christ himself stated that it belonged to Caesar
and should be given to him, regardless of whether it was right or just. Consider your
point, refuted.

That is beside the point. The point is that Yahshua was pointing out that
the Jews were not giving a gift to the Romans; but they were repaying what
belonged to the Romans by paying the taxes. He also pointed out that they
should give to God what He is owed. You do not pay any attention to the
fact that they were trying to trick Him. This is not to be applied to all
situations equally as you seem to think it should. God gave us a brain to
use. Why don't you use it for a change instead of just relying on the
Watchtower to do your thinking for you and tell you what you must believe?

Originally posted by Melanerpes
Do you believe that it would have been better if we didn't have a democratic system and we were still living under the rule of hereditary monarchs and noblemen?

I am completely a-political, it would not matter to me, i we were living under the
Chinese emperors or some kind of secular liberal utopia, the Bible is clear on the
matter, to him who calls for the tribute, give the tribute.

Originally posted by RJHinds
That is beside the point. The point is that Yahshua was pointing out that
the Jews were not giving a gift to the Romans; but they were repaying what
belonged to the Romans by paying the taxes. He also pointed out that they
should give to God what He is owed. You do not pay any attention to the
fact that they were trying to trick Him. This is not to b ...[text shortened]... just relying on the
Watchtower to do your thinking for you and tell you what you must believe?

This is mere opinion masquerading as something else. The bible is clear on the matter,
whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This is mere opinion masquerading as something else. The bible is clear on the matter,
whether you like it or not.

Yes, it seems clear to me, but your Watchtower society has come up
with some weird interpretation that can not possibly be right, because
it does not make sense and does not agree with all of scripture.