Originally posted by @fmfI’m really not interested in arguing with you. I think my position is pretty clear, not only here but in numerous other threads where I’ve said the same thing.
Yes, I know about your fixation on "belief". But there needs to be evidence of it, right? It has to translate into good works and an end to or avoidance of willful "sin", yes? Belief without evidence of it is not enough, correct?
If it’s not clear to you, my apologies; I can’t make it any clearer.
FMF: "Yes, I know about your fixation on "belief". But there needs to be evidence of it, right? It has to translate into good works and an end to or avoidance of willful "sin", yes? Belief without evidence of it is not enough, correct?"I'm not interested in you arguing with me either. Three yes-or-no questions indicated by words ":...right?" "...yes?" "...correct?" They regard the following words you used: belief, works, evidence and sin. Three answers would be as clear as clear can be. You can plead being "not interested" if you want to. You doing so will mean whatever people think it means.
Originally posted by @romans1009
I’m really not interested in arguing with you. I think my position is pretty clear, not only here but in numerous ot ...[text shortened]... ’ve said the same thing.
If it’s not clear to you, my apologies; I can’t make it any clearer.
Originally posted by @fmfIt means I’m not interested in being interrogated by you, especially since I suspect your motive is trolling.
I'm not interested in you arguing with me either. Three yes-or-no questions indicated by words ":...right?" "...yes?" "...correct?" They regard the following words you used: belief, works, evidence and sin. Three answers would be as clear as clear can be. You can plead being "not interested" if you want to. You doing so will mean whatever people think it means.
The answers to your questions are as clear as day in the posts I’ve already written. If you don’t see them, my apologies. I can’t make my position any clearer.
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Originally posted by @romans1009So, you seem to be saying that belief without evidence of it is not enough. The evidence indicates sincerity. This is what you seem to believe. So, does the person who unilaterally declares themselves "saved" also decide how much or how little "evidence" of 'good works' and aversion to sin" is enough?
It means I’m not interested in being interrogated by you, especially since I suspect your motive is trolling.
The answers to your questions are as clear as day in the posts I’ve already written. If you don’t see them, my apologies. I can’t make my position any clearer.
Originally posted by @fmfThis is why I’m not going to discuss this with you. You misrepresent what I’ve said and what I believe and you do it consistently.
So, you seem to be saying that belief without evidence of it is not enough. The evidence indicates sincerity. This is what you seem to believe. So, does the person who unilaterally declares themselves "saved" also decide how much or how little "evidence" of 'good works' and aversion to sin" is enough?
People don’t “unilaterally declare themselves saved.” I’ve never said that and it’s not true. People are saved based on God’s promises in the Bible in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 - not because they declare themselves saved.
Once they sincerely and genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, they are saved.
God’s Holy Spirit then indwells them and begins to change their heart and, consequently, their behavior.
There is no uniform number of good works a saved person must do as evidence he or she is saved. It depends on the person’s circumstances and how damaged they were when they accepted Christ.
Each believer’s walk with Christ is unique. You can’t reduce it to a one-size-fits-all mathematical formula. Just as your relationship with every other person you know is unique, so is Jesus Christ’s relationship with believers.
Originally posted by @romans1009You've described yourself as "saved", have you not? If I am not mistaken, you have also described this state of being "saved" as being irrevocable, even by God. Have I got what you've claimed wrong?
People don’t “unilaterally declare themselves saved.” I’ve never said that and it’s not true. People are saved based on God’s promises in the Bible in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 - not because they declare themselves saved.
Originally posted by @romans1009No "evidence" of this change ~ no changed behaviour, no 'good works' etc. ~ no "salvation" right?
Once they sincerely and genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, they are saved. God’s Holy Spirit then indwells them and begins to change their heart and, consequently, their behavior.
Originally posted by @romans1009I am not aware of anyone who has suggested that there is. But here's a question: can there be 'not enough'? Or if a person describes themselves as "saved" can they also describe whatever they want, however much of it or little of it, as being the "evidence" that they "accepted Christ"?
There is no uniform number of good works a saved person must do as evidence he or she is saved. It depends on the person’s circumstances and how damaged they were when they accepted Christ.
Originally posted by @fmfJust as I suspected. You’re only interested in trolling.
You've described yourself as "saved", have you not? If I am not mistaken, you have also described this state of being "saved" as being irrevocable, even by God. Have I got what you've claimed wrong?
But I will say, since you may legitimately be confused, God is the One who set the criteria for salvation and who decided salvation was unconditional - not me.
So I’m not saying the state of being saved is irrevocable - that is what God says in the Bible.
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Originally posted by @romans1009You've described yourself as "saved", have you not?
But I will say, since you may legitimately be confused, God is the One who set the criteria for salvation and who decided salvation was unconditional - not me.
Originally posted by @romans1009So you would describe yourself as irrevocably "saved"?
So I’m not saying the state of being saved is irrevocable - that is what God says in the Bible.
Originally posted by @romans1009Have you fulfilled the criteria in terms of your sincerity and the supposed resulting changed behaviour and other evidence?
God is the One who set the criteria for salvation and who decided salvation was unconditional - not me.
Originally posted by @fmfWe’ve had this conversation before. You don’t remember?
No "evidence" of this change ~ no changed behaviour, no 'good works' etc. ~ no "salvation" right?
A saved person will exhibit good works and an aversion to sin. How long that takes and the pace of progression depends on the person’s circumstances and how broken they were when they accepted Jesus Christ. Every person’s situation is unique.
You can’t reduce it to, John Doe didn’t do a good work in two days - he’s not saved! Or, Jane Doe’s still smoking after two days - she’s not saved!
Jesus Christ meets the new believer wherever he or she is and in whatever circumstance he or she is in and God’s Holy Spirit indwells the new believer and begins to change his or her heart. How quickly that is reflected in outward behavior depends on each individual’s circumstance and brokenness when they accepted Christ.
Originally posted by @romans1009And if they don't?
A saved person will exhibit good works and an aversion to sin.