Originally posted by @fmfAgain, people aren’t saved because they say rhey’re saved. They’re saved based on God’s promises in the Bible.
I am not aware of anyone who has suggested that there is. But here's a question: can there be 'not enough'? Or if a person describes themselves as "saved" can they also describe whatever they want, however much of it or little of it, as being the "evidence" that they "accepted Christ"?
Once they’re saved, God’s Holy Spirit indwells them and changes them as they begin their walk with Jesus Christ.
Every person’s walk with Christ is unique just as every person’s circumstances and relationships with other people are unique.
Originally posted by @romans1009No one is asking you or anyone else to "reduce it" in this way. So this is you creating an argument - that no one is making - and then disagreeing with it. The question is this: if a person describes themselves as "saved" can they also describe whatever they want, however much of it or little of it, as being the "evidence" that they "accepted Christ"?
You can’t reduce it to, John Doe didn’t do a good work in two days - he’s not saved! Or, Jane Doe’s still smoking after two days - she’s not saved!
Originally posted by @romans1009And "evidence" of this can then be seen in that person's 'good works' and their avoidance of "sin", right?
Once they’re saved, God’s Holy Spirit indwells them and changes them as they begin their walk with Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by @romans1009Who is the evidence for exactly?
Belief in Jesus Christ = Salvation.
Good works and an aversion to sin = Evidence of salvation.
Is this evidence weighed and judged?
Originally posted by @fmfWhether or not a person is saved is not based on their saying they are saved. It’s based on whether they’ve accepted Jesus Christ.
No one is asking you or anyone else to "reduce it" in this way. So this is you creating an argument - that no one is making - and then disagreeing with it. The question is this: if a person describes themselves as "saved" can they also describe whatever they want, however much of it or little of it, as being the "evidence" that they "accepted Christ"?
After they are saved, the rapidity in which they do good works and develop an aversion to sin depends on their circumstances and how damaged they were when they accepted Christ.
I don’t think any genuinely saved person is tabulating or categorizing good works that they do. I think that’s an absurd proposition.
I think it’s more likely they are consciously noting when they sin so they can in prayer repent and ask for strength to avoid that particular sin, whatever it may be.
Originally posted by @romans1009So, it's up to the "saved" person to do as much or as little 'good works' as they want, is that right? However much they do or don't do, it is the "evidence" you were talking about, right? It's all up to them, yes?
Whether or not a person is saved is not based on their saying they are saved. It’s based on whether they’ve accepted Jesus Christ.
After they are saved, the rapidity in which they do good works and develop an aversion to sin depends on their circumstances and how damaged they were when they accepted Christ.
I don’t think any genuinely saved person ...[text shortened]... they can in prayer repent and ask for strength to avoid that particular sin, whatever it may be.
Originally posted by @fmfIt’s not evidence in that sense. It’s simply a manifestation of God’s Holy Spirit being within someone.
Who is the evidence for exactly?
Is this evidence weighed and judged?
I suppose one could argue the evidence is for people within that saved person’s social circle, because if they see a positive change in the saved person and know he or she is a new Christian, that change or “evidence” may lead them to accept Christ as well.
FMF: And "evidence" of this can then be seen in that person's 'good works' and their avoidance of "sin", right?And if this "evidence" cannot be seen and there appear to be no 'good works' and there seems to be no avoidance of "sin", despite them declaring that they have "accepted Christ" and that they are "saved", what then? "Saved" regardless?
Originally posted by @romans1009
Right.
Originally posted by @fmfNo, it’s not. It’s the power of God’s Holy Spirit working through them.
So, it's up to the "saved" person to do as much or as little 'good works' as they want, is that right? However much they do or don't do, it is the "evidence" you were talking about, right? It's all up to them, yes?
Originally posted by @romans1009What if the change is indiscernible or there are no evident 'good works' or the amount of "sin" is the same as before or the change does not seem to be positive? What then for the self-identifying Christian and his or her social circle? Can one be "saved" and yet repel people from "accepting Christ"?
I suppose one could argue the evidence is for people within that saved person’s social circle, because if they see a positive change in the saved person and know he or she is a new Christian, that change or “evidence” may lead them to accept Christ as well.
Originally posted by @romans1009Can "the power of God’s Holy Spirit working through them" sometimes result in hardly anything that seems like 'good works' and hardly any change in "sinning"?
No, it’s not. It’s the power of God’s Holy Spirit working through them.
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Originally posted by @fmfYou asked this already and I answered it.
And if this "evidence" cannot be seen and there appear to be no 'good works' and there seems to be no avoidance of "sin", despite them declaring that they have "accepted Christ" and that they are "saved", what then? "Saved" regardless?
Good works and an aversion to sin follow salvation and God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a new believer.
The pace at which the good works and aversion to sin happens depends on the person’s circumstances and how damaged they were when they accepted Christ.
Originally posted by @romans1009If they decided, based on the promises in the Bible, to describe themselves as "saved" but then their "acceptance of Christ" and "God’s Holy Spirit" was followed by little or no 'good works' and a continuation of "sin", God can revoke the promise, yes? You, for example, might - in fact - not be genuine and sincere - and so you describing yourself as "saved" might be meaningless. The evidence of your sincerity will be judged when you die, right?
Then their acceptance of Christ was not genuine and sincere because God’s Holy Spirit did not indwell them.