Originally posted by @fmfI think you’re asking the same question a dozen different ways, and I’m going to bed.
What if the change is indiscernible or there are no evident 'good works' or the amount of "sin" is the same as before or the change does not seem to be positive? What then for the self-identifying Christian and his or her social circle? Can one be "saved" and yet repel people from "accepting Christ"?
I’ll pick it up later if I can discern something I haven’t already answered.
Have a good evening.
Originally posted by @romans1009But the "good works and aversion to sin" must happen eventually, right, regardless of the pace, otherwise, them describing themselves as "irrevocably saved" will have turned out to be a presumptuous mistake, yes?
The pace at which the good works and aversion to sin happens depends on the person’s circumstances and how damaged they were when they accepted Christ.
Originally posted by @fmfGood works and an aversion to sin follow acceptance of Christ, salvation and God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a believer.
If they decided, based on the promises in the Bible, to describe themselves as "saved" but then their "acceptance of Christ" and "God’s Holy Spirit" was followed by little or no 'good works' and a continuation of "sin", God can revoke the promise, yes? You, for example, might - in fact - not be genuine and sincere - and so you describing yourself as "saved" might be meaningless. The evidence of your sincerity will be judged when you die, right?
God does not revoke a promise. If a person is not changed for the better (with that being manifested by good works and an aversion to sin) then that person did not sincerely accept Christ.
People who have genuinely and sincerely accepted Jesus Christ know it while they’re on earth. They know if they’re saved while they’re on earth.
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
(Romans 8:16)
Originally posted by @romans1009So when you describe yourself as "saved" there is absolutely no way of knowing if what you say is actually true and there is absolutely no way of knowing if you have been changed by your belief in Jesus or whether your god figure's promise applies to at all, despite your declarations, right?
Good works and an aversion to sin follow acceptance of Christ, salvation and God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a believer.
God does not revoke a promise. If a person is not changed for the better (with that being manifested by good works and an aversion to sin) then that person did not sincerely accept Christ.
Originally posted by @fmf“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
So when you describe yourself as "saved" there is absolutely no way of knowing if what you say is actually true and there is absolutely no way of knowing if you have been changed by your belief in Jesus or whether your god figure's promise applies to at all, despite your declarations, right?
(Romans 8:16)
-Removed-I agree with that passage. Is that the gospel of Paul? What do you make of the fact that Paul later on tells these very same born-again Christian saints in Christ, that they have to live righteously and do good works otherwise they will not get eternal life.
Would that not mean that 'saved' does not mean 'eternal life' ? Saved means saved from their sins ie they are forgiven for past sins and they start with a new life in Christ.
It is only IF they obey from then on, the commandments of Christ and live righteously ONLY THEN can they inherit the Kingdom of God.
Christians mistakenly assume that SAVED = ETERNAL LIFE.
This is an incorrect doctrine and this is not what Paul preached.
Originally posted by @fmfCorrect .. this is what Christianity is now.. . many make this presumptuous mistake of taking eternal life before Jesus grants it to them. I cannot remember one single passage where Paul did that or said that.
But the "good works and aversion to sin" must happen eventually, right, regardless of the pace, otherwise, them describing themselves as "irrevocably saved" will have turned out to be a presumptuous mistake, yes?
This is a new doctrine of modern Christians. In fact the opposite is true where Paul said that he must keep himself in subjection lest he himself is rejected and becomes a castaway. That speaks volumes of how critical it is to live righteously and do good works.
But that is downplayed... why? Because that doctrine.. the correct doctrine does not sell.. it does not full churches and make pastors rich. Christianity is a corrupt diseased moneymaking enterprise which has removed the doctrine of Christ from their hearts, and has re-engineered the doctrine of Paul to suit their greed and immorality.
Originally posted by @rajk999I get the impression that Romans1009 doesn't realize how utterly wishy-washy his dogma sounds. It's like a diet plan that says, if you believe in this plan sincerely, you will lose weight without having to do anything about the fact you are obese, it will just happen and the diet plan will have worked. All you have to do is declare yourself thin and the rest just happens. If it doesn't, you just weren't sincere about the 'I am thin' thing. Blah blah blah. Wishy-washy, pretentious, sanctimonious, superstitious just-think-stuff, just say-stuff twaddle.
Correct .. this is what Christianity is now.. . many make this presumptuous mistake of taking eternal life before Jesus grants it to them. I cannot remember one single passage where Paul did that or said that.
This is a new doctrine of modern Christians. In fact the opposite is true where Paul said that he must keep himself in subjection lest he himself ...[text shortened]... rom their hearts, and has re-engineered the doctrine of Paul to suit their greed and immorality.
Originally posted by @fmf“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
I get the impression that Romans1009 doesn't realize how utterly wishy-washy his dogma sounds. It's like a diet plan that says, if you believe in this plan sincerely, you will lose weight without having to do anything about the fact you are obese, it will just happen and the diet plan will have worked. All you have to do is declare yourself thin and the rest ju ...[text shortened]... Wishy-washy, pretentious, sanctimonious, superstitious just-think-stuff, just say-stuff twaddle.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
Originally posted by @romans1009Q.E.D., as they say.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
Originally posted by @romans1009The things of the Spirit of God is good works and righteousness.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
You have not received that.
That is foolishness to you.
You do not know of them
God did not show these things to you.
You are the natural man
Anyone who understands about righteousness and good works are of God.
Clearly not you.
Originally posted by @rajk999Try Romans 10:9.
Correct .. this is what Christianity is now.. . many make this presumptuous mistake of taking eternal life before Jesus grants it to them. I cannot remember one single passage where Paul did that or said that.
This is a new doctrine of modern Christians. In fact the opposite is true where Paul said that he must keep himself in subjection lest he himself ...[text shortened]... rom their hearts, and has re-engineered the doctrine of Paul to suit their greed and immorality.
I can get you a lot more tomorrow and not just from Paul.
I think you’re misreading Paul’s castaway verse and can get you that tomorrow also
Originally posted by @rajk999There you go again...
The things of the Spirit of God is good works and righteousness.
You have not received that.
That is foolishness to you.
You do not know of them
God did not show these things to you.
You are the natural man
Anyone who understands about righteousness and good works are of God.
Clearly not you.
I’m surprised you didn’t condemn me to hell this time. Maybe you’ll do that later after you’ve limbered up to strut around with your chest puffed out
Originally posted by @fmfA nonsensical doctrine indeed. Some people eventually learn how foolish it all sounds and they shift away from it.
I get the impression that Romans1009 doesn't realize how utterly wishy-washy his dogma sounds. It's like a diet plan that says, if you believe in this plan sincerely, you will lose weight without having to do anything about the fact you are obese, it will just happen and the diet plan will have worked. All you have to do is declare yourself thin and the rest ju ...[text shortened]... Wishy-washy, pretentious, sanctimonious, superstitious just-think-stuff, just say-stuff twaddle.
Checkbaiter, I have a say, is a good example of such a Christian who moved away from the darkness of the once-saved-always-saved doctrine to the light of Christ. Not many have the will and God given strength to do it.
Originally posted by @romans1009What is the Spirit of God?
There you go again...
I’m surprised you didn’t condemn me to hell this time. Maybe you’ll do that later after you’ve limbered up to strut around with your chest puffed out