@secondson saiddivegeester doesn't subscribe to torturer god ideology. Those that do don't think the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor.
Ask divegeester. He'll probably tell you the "lake of fire" is a metaphor.
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@secondson saidThe fact that you don't subscribe to the torturer god ideology doesn't mean that there aren't Christians who do. Stop trying to use me as a proxy through which to express your dissent with regard to what some of your fellow Christians believe.
Jeez FMF! I've been trying to tell you that for over a week now!
🤦♂️ ✌️
@secondson saidBut the scriptures do not say there's physical torture.
The scriptures tell of judgment and everlasting punishment.But the scriptures do not say there's physical torture. But who in their right mind would want to endure an eternity in outer darkness? Separated from the light? Nothing to feel, taste, hear or see? Left with only ones memories.
So what is it? Psychological torture?
What is the purpose of the tenth year of this torture? What is the purpose of the hundredth year of this torture? What is the purpose of the millionth year of this torture?
What is the purpose of this threat of torture for [1] believers while they are alive and [2] for non-believers while they are alive, and [3] what is the purpose of this torture for non-believers after they are dead? What is the purpose of psychological torture for eternity?
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@fmf said"So what is it?"
But the scriptures do not say there's physical torture.
So what is it? Psychological torture?
What is the purpose of the tenth year of this torture? What is the purpose of the hundredth year of this torture? What is the purpose of the millionth year of this torture?
What is the purpose of this threat of torture for [1] believers while they are alive and [2] for n ...[text shortened]... re for non-believers after they are dead? What is the purpose of psychological torture for eternity?
The word 'everlasting occurs in 26 verses in the New Testament. Twice as 'everlasting fire'. Once as 'everlasting punishment'. Once as 'everlasting destruction'. And once as 'everlasting chains under darkness', but that is in the context referring to fallen angels.
Ten times as 'everlasting life'. Four times as 'life everlasting'.
Everlasting means lasting forever. It never ends. Either as life or as destruction or as punishment or fire.
Don't blame me, I didn't write it. Know what I mean?
What say you we dig just a little bit deeper under the surface. Consider this that Jesus said in Mark 9:44,46,48; "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
What is "their worm"? skōlēx - a worm, specifically the kind which preys upon dead bodies.
I think what happens is, is that they that are without everlasting life are reduced to a state like that of a worm. Not much left there. Something bereft of life. Barely conscious of itself, if at all. Something not capable of feeling, hearing, seeing, smelling or tasting. A wasted soul void of the consciousness of life.
That's my best guess because I really don't know nor do I really want to. It's not my focus or my destiny.
"Psychological torture?"
I don't think there's much left of the psyche to be in anguish, but it's possible there may be memory.
"What is the purpose of the tenth year of this torture? What is the purpose of the hundredth year of this torture? What is the purpose of the millionth year of this torture?"
Kind of a good question, but I don't know for sure. All I really know is that it is everlasting.
"What is the purpose of this threat of torture for [1] believers while they are alive and [2] for non-believers while they are alive,.."
It's not a threat, and it's not torture. That's your word, not the Bible's. Clearly stated as a reality. Everlasting punishment isn't a metaphor. It means exactly what it says. This is like a no-brainer. 🤷🏻♂️
"...and [3] what is the purpose of this torture for non-believers after they are dead? What is the purpose of psychological torture for eternity?"
Again, torture is your word. 'Torture' is not in the narrative of scripture, and neither is the word 'psychological'. Another no-brainer. 🤷🏻♂️
@secondson saidYou should argue with proponents of torturer god ideology directly and not use an atheist as a proxy.
"So what is it?"
The word 'everlasting occurs in 26 verses in the New Testament. Twice as 'everlasting fire'. Once as 'everlasting punishment'. Once as 'everlasting destruction'. And once as 'everlasting chains under darkness', but that is in the context referring to fallen angels.
Ten times as 'everlasting life'. Four times as 'life everlasting'.
Everlasting ...[text shortened]... ot in the narrative of scripture, and neither is the word 'psychological'. Another no-brainer. 🤷🏻♂️
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Keep in mind a few things
KellyJay, I "keep in mind" many things. But usually if I wrote more than one or two things in mind, the post is too long.
first being Jesus became a man and lived as one with all
of the limitations that men have.
Yes. He is really Emanuel - "God with us" . Yet also "a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief" . And all the things of Isaiah 53 reveal He was a genuine human. The Gospel the most emphasis His humanity is the gospel of Luke.
That means He didn't turn on and off His
Godhood,
When I study how Jesus lived sometimes there is a seamlessness in which it iss sometimes difficult to see where the Man ended and God begun. So seamless are some of His actions that I can only say Jesus did the right thing at the right time and in the right way.
Look at some of His healings. He simply said something like "Go you way, you are healed." Sometimes we see Him know only what God could know. Other times we see Him surprised at realizing something.
Sometimes we see Him petitioning His Father.
At other times He just seamlessly exercises His own initiative and the supernatural takes place. The blending of Himself with God is often so seamless that we can only see a mingling of humanity with Divinity.
We see that He is human. And we see that He is God. We see both and often with dramatic distinction. At other times the blending is so seamless we can only say we see God-man.
KellyJay, cont.
He humbled Himself to be as one of us and obeyed the Father even to
His death on the cross. He felt all of our temptations yet without sin, He even had something to look forward to, the joy set before Him to encourage Him.
Yes. I agree. This is wonderful.
Hebrews 12 English Standard Version (ESV) 1- 2
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Yes. I would like to add something
We have to tremendous honor and privilege to find out something of what it was like to be Him. We have the honor to walk as He walked and by experience come into His expression.
My basis for saying this is John 6:57 for instance.
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me shall also live because of Mee." (John 6:57)
He took in His Father staying in constant contact with the Father. And if we ingest Jesus, if we "eat" Him we also will live because of Him as He lived because of the Father.
To some degree we can find out what the mingling of God and humanity is like by "eating" Jesus. We then walk the path that He also walked with His Father.
This is an unspeakable honor. It is strange that we often under appreciate this. It is bizarre the typical unbeliever cannot grasp the utter dignity of this.
What a purpose for living. What a way to live. What a matter to live FOR!
There is a caveat though with us believers. The more love among us the richer each individual part enjoys this reality. The more harmony among us the more this power is unleashed to the members of Christ's mystical Body.
The unity of the Spirit unlocks more of the riches of the experience of God-man living. The more horizontal love them more downpouring and outflowing of the life of Christ.
Go on please.
While here as man until His death He couldn't be with us as the Holy Spirit, as He sat down at the right hand of God there He intercedes for us, but the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son comes into each of us, not to talk about Himself but share what we need by teaching us, directing our steps to do the work of God, and He is the seal of the promise that we have received God's salvation.
That's what I believe. No disagreement there.
Ephesians 1:12-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
The thing about Adam and Jesus is that both were men, the first and the second. One failed, the other the victor who over came the world. It was foretold He was coming and He would become one of us throughout the Old Testament. As far back as Genesis.
Amen to all of this. The next point I do not quite understand.
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Kellyjay, cont.
Are you attempting to prove a oneness doctrine?
Genesis 3
14 The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
Could you clarify two things here?
1.) Exactly what do you mean by "a oneness doctrine" ?
I am not trying to prove that brand of Modelism which argues that when the Father is here, the Son is not. And where the Son is here, the Father is not, and so forth. MODES, they say, yet the Three are not simultaneously in existence.
If that is what you mean by "a oneness doctrine", no, I do not argue for that.
But we have to be careful that we do not prescribe a medicine for an illness which itself may harm us.
John 1:1,14 and 1 Cor. 15:45 are there. I don't suppress them because some forms of Modalism may abuse them.
2.) The connection to your question and the reference ot Genesis 3:14,15 - could you elaborate a bit.
What connection are you trying to explain there ?