@fmf saidWe all do, again you have seen this before. You have claimed you once believed in
So you are "saved" regardless of your "evil and wickedness". Do "deserve" punishment by eternal torment?
the Christian faith. Before a Holy Good God, He will not make a place for sinners to
enter into His Kingdom that have remained unrepentant sinners here.
Why should he?
@fmf saidAnd I'm not interested in your cowardly attempts to misrepresent the theology of others by insinuating they hold to a "torturer god ideology".
I am not interested in your cowardly attempts to use me as a proxy in your disagreement with the torturer god ideologues here. Take it up with them directly.
-Removed-Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And you think it's all metaphorical and no reality while you mock God's "perfect justice", and mock Christians who are not your brothers, but just arrogant asses.
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@KellyJay
Kelly, this should continue our exchange about John 1:14 and 1 Cor. 15:45. I will attempt to be brief.
If you are attempting to suggest that Jesus couldn't remain who He is by taking on additional titles you would be wrong.
Jesus told His disciples that it was EXPEDIENT that He go away or else the Comforter would not come to them from He and His Father. (See John 14,16). So He considered His process as expedient.
"But I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send Him to you." (John 16:7)
Do you consider it important to God that the Holy Spirit come to His believers? If so then you should consider expedient that "the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)
@secondson saidI am not 'misrepresenting' anything.
And I'm not interested in your cowardly attempts to misrepresent the theology of others by insinuating they hold to a "torturer god ideology".
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KellyJay cont.
I can be a man, marry becoming a husband, then father, I still remain who I am.
In order to enter into us as He would God took two steps.
John 1:14 - "the Word became flesh".
1 Cor. 15:45b - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"
Perhaps this sounds some alarms of some kind about God changing. But either we believe the word of God or we doubt He knows what He is talking about.
These two "BECAMEs" are a part of His economy.
The Apostle John wrote one and the Apostle Paul wrote the other.
If I adopt an attitude that maybe they need to learn from me how to simplify things a bit, not cause trouble by saying God BECAME and Christ BECAME, that would be presumptuous of me.
I would be making the error of making the word of God void on account of my tradition.
So I choose to leave it as it is and say "Amen". He had to become flesh. He had to become a life giving Spirit.
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KellyJay, cont.
Becoming something new isn't by necessity changing who you are.
I take it as God making Himself available to be dispensed into us.
What can we do with the pure word of the Bible but believe it?
It was necessary for "the Word" to become flesh.
It was expedient that the last Adam among us go away and come again to enter INTO us as a life giving Spirit.
In both instances God tells us "BECAME" was involved.
Both must have been necessary though God is perfect.
Someone else once put it to me - "How can you improve upon perfection?"
Regardless God went through becoming flesh. (John 1:1,14)
Then that God-man went through becoming a life giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)
NOw you may contemplate that the perfect man was PERFECTED. This means a kind of procedure or process. So the perfect Triune God nonetheless passed through a process.
"Even though He was a Son, learned obedience through the things which He suffered. And having been perfected through the things which He suffered, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation." (Hebrews 5:8,9)
Becoming something new doesn't involve changing what you are.
Have no fear. I believe God is perfect.
I believe Christ was the perfect man.
But my conscience is held captive to the word of God.
Christ suffered, learned obedience, was perfected.
And the Word Who was God "BECAME flesh."
And the Christ who was "the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit."
The Apostles John and Paul wrote these things.
God is perfect. God passed through an economical "becames" to enter into us as our Redeemer and life.
KellyJay, cont.
I don't deny the Word became flesh I rejoice in it.
Praise the Lord. Me too.
I don't negate either of those two things by what I have said either.
I do not deny that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit. He did this by coming here as one of us, becoming the last Adam from His position from Heaven.
Kelly, that is good. However you are somewhat making becoming a life giving Spirit the same thing as the Word becoming flesh.
AFTER He became flesh, lived, died, and resurrected - He became a life giving Spirit. Embrace it. You are hammering it to mean the same thing as incarnation. This is in the chapter on resurrrection - First Corinthians 15.
In resurrection He became a life giving Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15: 45-49
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Thankyou.
So we who receive Christ are headed up into a new humanity. Our SECOND man is Christ. Our source of living and eternal life is the Last Adam - Christ.
'Now the Lord is the Spirit" ( 2 Cor. 3:17)
It was expedient for Him to undergo this becoming a life giving Holy Spirit. It was to our advantage.
It was not just to our advantage that He redeem us.
It was also to our advantage that the Man be put into a form in which He could enter into us to give us Himself as life.
@kellyjay saidThere are Muslims who are repentant. There are Jews who are repentant. There are Hindus who are repentant.
We all do, again you have seen this before. You have claimed you once believed in
the Christian faith. Before a Holy Good God, He will not make a place for sinners to
enter into His Kingdom that have remained unrepentant sinners here.
Why should he?
@fmf saidThey don’t deserve anything for reading and rejecting what I write. I am not that important nor does it matter if I am agreed with or not, I am not that important. There is nothing about me that matters that much, but God is and does matter that much! You keep going on about what I think not the reality that we are in which isn’t created by me.
Why does someone who doesn't believe all this stuff you are typing "deserve" to be punished?
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KellyJay cont.
1 Corinthians 15: 45-49
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
I much favor the capitalization of Spirit there. This is the Third of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (Recovery Version)
Holman Christian Standard Bible
So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
Vincent, Alford, Walker taught that the Spirit the Lord is in 2 Cor. 3:17 is the Holy Spirit. [my bolding, spacing]
“The Lord Christ of ver. 16 is the Spirit who pervades and animates the new covenant of which we are ministers (ver. 6), and the ministration of which is with glory (ver. 8). Compare Romans 8:9-11; John 14:16, 18” (Vincent).
“The Lord of verse 16 is the Spirit,...which giveth life, verse 6, meaning, ‘the Lord', as here spoken of, ‘Christ', ‘is the Spirit', is identical with the Holy Spirit:...Christ, here, is the Spirit of Christ” (Alford).
“All that transforming and indwelling Spirit is Christ Himself. ‘The Lord is the Spirit'” (Williston Walker).
Life Study of Second Corinthians by Witness Lee
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2BEC06E968
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@fmf saidBiblical repentance. Metanoeo - To change one's mind. It corresponds with confession, homologeĊ - to say the same thing.
There are Muslims who are repentant. There are Jews who are repentant. There are Hindus who are repentant.
In other words, according to the Word of God, one agrees with God that they're a sinner and changes their mind about continuing in rebellion.
Not the Hindu god. Not the Muslim god. The one and only God. The God of the Bible. The only God that offers eternal life as a free gift to anyone that repents and confesses Jesus as savior and Lord.
Straight forward and just that simple.