04 Feb 14
Recently I was discussing with a friend how nice it would be to have discussions that were based on mutual respect for one another vs. disdain and at times feeling the need to be 'right', at the others expense. The truth is everyone of us comes from different homes, has different parents, are exposed to different people, have been taught different things, have made different decisions, committed different sins and have chosen to believe what we believe based on these few things... there are many more to be sure. Our journeys have made us who we are today, but that journey is not done.
I believe that those who hold to faith (I am speaking of the Christian faith), the faith of the bible... are plentiful in this forum. I am interested in discussing and exchanging thoughts on why or what one's belief is in regards to the Godhead (the Trinity). You see for me, it is not too difficult to understand the basic concept and believe the truth of it goes far beyond human/my understanding.
In another thread one poster made this statement:
Isaiah is making a prophecy about the messiah, which is Jesus, not an archangel called Michael. Jesus will be called the mighty God and that is true, for all Christians do call Him the mighty God. The apostle Paul wrote, "Our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The apostle Paul also wrote that the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily and He create ...[text shortened]... esus forgave sins and rose from the dead, so I ask you, who else can do that but the mighty God?
Another poster responded with this...
So the other two beings of this godhead cannot do those things? Apparently not. So then they are not all equal? Apperantly not.
Hear is how I understand the Godhead. It is very simplistic and does not come close to the truth of it, but I think you may agree it can make sense if given some honest thought.
The Godhead is made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Three distinct yet all the same, One God! There is an aspect to the Father that is different than the Son, and the Son different from the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost different from the Father. To refer to each of the members of the Godhead with attributes or characteristics would be to limit on each member, God is not limited to man's understanding and cannot be defined by man, I believe this to be true.
Take H2O, this is a substance that takes on 3 forms... Ice, Water and Steam. All three are individual and separate yet the same, all are one! Ice can do things that water and steam cannot do. It has the power to break things with enormous pressure. Steam on the other hand can also do things that the other cannot do, it has the ability to burn, cut and vanish. Likewise, water is also different... without there would be no life.
This is a lame analogy but one I think illustrates how the Godhead may be able to be easily understood in layman's terms. I don't want a debate between sects, denominations, etc. What do you think, and why do you think it? Let's learn possibly from one another.
If you want to ask me or rail on me about something, PM me. Let's keep this debate civil with respect. Do you believe/understand the Godhead in a similar way, totally different? Thoughts, comments please.
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteYes. As you said, that is somewhat of a simplistic explanation, but I do not think it is putting God in a box as some have accused me of trying to do. It is only an attempt to explain something about God, even though I don't believe we can fully understand the nature or supernature of God.
Recently I was discussing with a friend how nice it would be to have discussions that were based on mutual respect for one another vs. disdain and at times feeling the need to be 'right', at the others expense. The truth is everyone of us comes from different homes, has different parents, are exposed to different people, have been taught different things, ...[text shortened]... believe/understand the Godhead in a similar way, totally different? Thoughts, comments please.
The Trinity doctrine is just another feeble attempt of man to understand God from what is revealed by the inspired writings.. I do not believe it is a pagan belief or an attempt to put God in a box as some believe.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by yoctobyteWhat do you mean by all the same? Equal?
.. Three distinct yet all the same...
You should be careful of believing doctrines which contradict the Bible. Paul stated very clearly that God is the head of Christ, and Christ himself said that God is greater than him. You cannot therefore place them on equal footing.
Next there is the problem of creating your doctrines, then convincing yourself that it is the truth and that any other doctrine must be wrong, when your method of developing these doctrines are flawed by incorrect assumptions from the start.
Finally ask yourself if Christ would conndemn someone for not believing exactly as you do. Far too many Christians believe that eternal life depends on a long list of correct teachings.
Do you think that believing is your version of the Godhead or Trinity is essential?
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by yoctobyteHi and thanks for your comments. I see you used one of my postings which is fine and appreciated.
Recently I was discussing with a friend how nice it would be to have discussions that were based on mutual respect for one another vs. disdain and at times feeling the need to be 'right', at the others expense. The truth is everyone of us comes from different homes, has different parents, are exposed to different people, have been taught different things, ...[text shortened]... believe/understand the Godhead in a similar way, totally different? Thoughts, comments please.
From a person that does not believe in the trinity and have truly tried to even slightly comprehend the explinations I've heard for years and that have varied or changed with time, I still have not understood where they say the Bible teaches it.
As I've stated before I am from the south of the US and my mother was raised a Baptist so I have first hand explinations from her as to what she was taught from her church and the trinity does have variations from one local to another.
So that does make it harder to see it as a truth in the Bible when these exist. It would seem that a truth would be a truth.
The Bible also cleary says that our God is 1 God. God's people in the past before Jesus never believed in a 3 being God.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible and that is very suspecious. It seems that to those who believe it as a central doctrine and even to some, if you don't believe it, you will not be saved.
The bible never says that and if this teaching were a matter of life and death, one would think God would have made sure this was CLEARLY understood to us all in the Bible. But it's not and in fact the entire Bible never teaches it. All of his commands and teaches that are in the Bible are very clear to understand.
Jesus never never taught it as neither did the apostles. In fact that word was never said by any of God's people that was written down in the Bible.
But other cultures have believed this for centuries and they were not Christians or God's people in anyway. In fact God had a couple of these nations destroyed because of their teachings and influances that directly endangered his people.
Also this doctrine was not even accepted into the church until the 400 or so years after Jesus died. Where was it before then? If it were a bible truth it should have been there all along.
Anyway thanks and this is my comment...
05 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999You should also consider that the Holy Bible says God was made flesh in Christ Jesus, so it should be obvious God is in Christ reconciling the world back to Himself. God is the head of Christ, just as Christ is the head of the church body. Isn't the head greater than the body? Christ spoke the words of God to mankind and did God's work, just like the body does the works directed by the head. But what works can the head do without the body? Perhaps this is how the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit work together. Maybe, something like our body, soul, and spirit.
What do you mean by all the same? Equal?
You should be careful of believing doctrines which contradict the Bible. Paul stated very clearly that God is the head of Christ, and Christ himself said that God is greater than him. You cannot therefore place them on equal footing.
Next there is the problem of creating your doctrines, then convincing yourself ...[text shortened]... eachings.
Do you think that believing is your version of the Godhead or Trinity is essential?
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsI was dealing with the specific matter of believing that God and Christ are equal or the same, a doctrine denied by both Christ and Paul.
You should also consider that the Holy Bible says God was made flesh in Christ Jesus, so it should be obvious God is in Christ reconciling the world back to Himself. God is the head of Christ, just as Christ is the head of the church body. Isn't the head greater than the body? Christ spoke the words of God to mankind and did God's work, just like the body ...[text shortened]... r, the son, and the Holy Spirit work together. Maybe, something like our body, soul, and spirit.
Is it your contention that working together implies equality?
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by Rajk999No, I am not implying a complete equality for I said the head is greater. However, I was just pointing out the necessity between them to accomplish the task. Just like the head can not build a house.
I was dealing with the specific matter of believing that God and Christ are equal or the same, a doctrine denied by both Christ and Paul.
Is it your contention that working together implies equality?
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I didn't see anything in the text of his post that implied that.
I was dealing with the specific matter of believing that God and Christ are equal or the same, a doctrine denied by both Christ and Paul.
Is it your contention that working together implies equality?
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYou started off with 'you should consider', which means that you are not in agreement with what I said.
No, I am not implying a complete equality for I said the head is greater. However, I was just pointing out the necessity between them to accomplish the task. Just like the head can not build a house.
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsThis is where the varying opinions of the trinity come in. You say one thing and others say another.
No, I am not implying a complete equality for I said the head is greater. However, I was just pointing out the necessity between them to accomplish the task. Just like the head can not build a house.
http://www.sbts.edu/family/blog/the-father-the-son-and-the-holy-spirit-the-trinity-as-theological-foundation-for-family-ministry/
http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Simmons/chapter07.htm
http://www.christianity.co.nz/church2.htm
05 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
What do you mean by all the sam...[text shortened]... ng is your version of the Godhead or Trinity is essential?
What do you mean by all the same? Equal?
Not at all. I mean it like this... you may be a father, a son, a brother, an uncle.. all are different and mean different things, you are one... but all of these things at the same time, you see?
You should be careful of believing doctrines which contradict the Bible. Paul stated very clearly that God is the head of Christ, and Christ himself said that God is greater than him. You cannot therefore place them on equal footing.
I don't think I am believing any doctrine, it is merely an understanding subject to change. I have not said anything is equal, in fact quite the opposite I think.
Next there is the problem of creating your doctrines, then convincing yourself that it is the truth and that any other doctrine must be wrong, when your method of developing these doctrines are flawed by incorrect assumptions from the start.
I have created nothing, I certainly have convinced myself of nothing. I do not believe an opposing view is wrong because if differs from mine. I would be interested in your thoughts vs. your chastisement of something I have not said. Do you have something?
Finally ask yourself if Christ would condemn someone for not believing exactly as you do. Far too many Christians believe that eternal life depends on a long list of correct teachings.
I do not believe Christ would condemn anybody because they did not believe as I do... why?... I could be wrong. I wonder if you read the OP, not sure where your line of questioning comes from. How do you believe on this? Would Christ condemn someone for not believing as you do?
Do you think that believing is your version of the Godhead or Trinity is essential?
Absolutely not. Thanks for the comments.