As a historical document, the Bible is no better or worse evidence that the persons named in it really existed and really performed those feats, than the Odyssey or the Illiad. I'd say that the chance is better than 50-50 that some such persons probably did exist, but that the feats related have been embellished with a load of supernatural stuff added for 'effect'. It's a lot easier to believe in miracles when ignorance of basic physical processes is widespread.
EDIT: the Bible is good evidence that certain people believed various things during a certain period in history; it is not good evidence that those beliefs were true.
11 May 15
Originally posted by wolfgang59How about ignorant?
I think it is you who is mistaking words for ideas. Your words are bereft of any.
.
Quoting bible verses in no way substantiates your claim of the importance of a Christ.
Telling me that I do not understand faith is irrelevant to the discussion so please do not side-track.
Is calling you ignorant okay?
And yes, sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la la la la la la la" makes you ignorant when done in lieu of learning.
11 May 15
Originally posted by googlefudgeYou DO know that he was quoting Matthew Parris, right?
Being an atheist does not stop you from being an idiot [sadly].
Given that Christian evangelism is largely responsible for the recent upsurge in anti-gay
laws and persecution in Christian Africa, [as well as the Catholics doing everything
possible to sabotage birth control leading to increased aids transmission among other
harms] I am going to r ...[text shortened]... t Christian evangelism in Africa [and everywhere
else] is both harmful, and spreading untruth.
There's really no reason to call AppleChess an idiot, atheist or not. (He's not, by the way.)
Oh, and by the way, spreading Christianity ANYwhere, Africa or not, is only of benefit to those "with ears to hear". It is NOT "harmful" or "dangerous" (as you once said), nor is it "spreading untruth". What IS harmful is people like you, standing in the way of these people's salvation.
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11 May 15
Originally posted by SuzianneDo you understand English right?
You DO know that he was quoting Matthew Parris, right?
There's really no reason to call AppleChess an idiot, atheist or not. (He's not, by the way.)
Oh, and by the way, spreading Christianity ANYwhere, Africa or not, is only of benefit to those "with ears to hear". It is NOT "harmful" or "dangerous" (as you once said), nor is it "spreading untruth". What IS harmful is people like you, standing in the way of these people's salvation.
I didn't call AppleChess an idiot, I was calling whoever wrote the quote an idiot.
And I stand by the evidence that says spreading religion, of any kind, is bad.
You not liking those facts notwithstanding.
Originally posted by googlefudgeClifford Rogers, PHD and atheist said this directly to his students one day in class(I was one of the students). I'll take a foremost scholar's word over yours.
[b]YES IT IS
This meme really has to die, it's total bunk.
If you have an absence of evidence for a claim being true then it is more likely that the claim is not true.
Therefore an absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
It may well not be strong evidence, depending on how much expected evidence their should be and
how hard and effec ...[text shortened]... ither way, an absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.
What it is not is PROOF of absence.[/b]
I also disagree. Lies are bred in a vacuum of evidence. Such was the case with the historical critical method until the 19th and 20th century finds in archeology.
11 May 15
Originally posted by googlefudgeYes, I do. You used the word "you". Where I come from that means the person you happen to be talking to. If you were idiot-calling the person who wrote the quote, perhaps a better choice would have been "him".
Do you understand English right?
I didn't call AppleChess an idiot, I was calling whoever wrote the quote an idiot.
And I stand by the evidence that says spreading religion, of any kind, is bad.
You not liking those facts notwithstanding.
Facts? In your head, maybe. AppleChess was speaking specifically of Christianity, and most agree that spreading it is a good thing, with more benefit to the local people than "just their salvation". Most Christian work these days includes increasing the local infrastructure with better water, better food production, increased sanitation, and more education, for instance. Leave it to you to call this "bad".
Originally posted by FMFI suspect there is nothing in terms of evidence that could be laid before you that would appear convincing. I find it amusing that on this forum among I presume mostly non academics (by this I mean most of you are lay individuals in this field and not scholars) that you attack what notable scholars use. Regardless of your opinion, staying with Josephus, Josephus is viewed and a critical source by Christians and non-Christians. I have never sat in an academic classroom or conference where Josephus was dismissed lightly. My point-you all run counter to the majority of scholars. I think who I'll side with is obvious.
Secondary sources written decades or even centuries after the events they refer to simply repeat claims that have been made and do not "confirm" the "existence" of anything other than the aforementioned claims. Josephus had no primary sources to base his claims on, other than the bits of the Bible that purport to describe Jesus' life, which were themselves written decades after his death by people intent on establishing a new/breakaway religion.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe gospel is preaching to the poor. I sense some derision from you in this post. So what if the majority of Christians are poor. They hear the gospel and receive hope and know that worldly success is not important. No one truly gets rich off the gospel. It is not a lottery ticket. The gospel transforms lives. Love is the apologetic.
I think that you would find that the vast majority of slum dwellers in question were already Christian.
Originally posted by googlefudgeFunny how instead of taking a notable journalist's words seriously-do you know who Matthew Pariss is-you term him an idiot. You sir, are academically closed minded. You think it is impossible for a rational human to state this. Matthew Pariss is highly regarded-he was sent to study the effect of GMO's for years and this was the conclusion he brought back. But go ahead and dismiss it. That's academically dishonest of you.
Being an atheist does not stop you from being an idiot [sadly].
Given that Christian evangelism is largely responsible for the recent upsurge in anti-gay
laws and persecution in Christian Africa, [as well as the Catholics doing everything
possible to sabotage birth control leading to increased aids transmission among other
harms] I am going to r ...[text shortened]... t Christian evangelism in Africa [and everywhere
else] is both harmful, and spreading untruth.
11 May 15
Originally posted by AppleChessThat is the problem with the argument from authority mindset. You just can't get out of it.
Clifford Rogers, PHD and atheist said this directly to his students one day in class(I was one of the students). I'll take a foremost scholar's word over yours.
He never asked you to take his word over anyone else's, he explained his reasoning. If you can point to an error in his reasoning, then feel free to do so. Merely quoting someone with a PhD who disagrees does not constitute a good counter argument.
Did you understand his explanation or not? If you did not, please ask for clarification. If you did, then explain why his reasoning is unsound.
11 May 15
Originally posted by SuzianneWho are these 'most'?
Facts? In your head, maybe. AppleChess was speaking specifically of Christianity, and most agree that spreading it is a good thing, with more benefit to the local people than "just their salvation". Most Christian work these days includes increasing the local infrastructure with better water, better food production, increased sanitation, and more education, for instance. Leave it to you to call this "bad".
I also think you are confusing the spreading of a religion, and the charitable work done be member of a religion in order to promote their religion, or just because they are good people.
Communist countries have done many good things in Africa, in part in an effort to promote communism. Do you believe spreading communism is a good thing?
Muslims are charitable too, often just as much as Christians. Do you believe spreading Islam is a good thing?
Do most agree that spreading communism and Islam is a good thing?
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeI presume this from comments made. No respectable academic in my existential experience (I'm a PhD candidate) would ever say many of the things said by some on this thread, Christian, non-Christian, or Atheist.
Why do you presume this and why does it cause you amusement?
If someone has more than lay study then I'm more than willing to accept it. However, I sense a bunch of people on here who have read the opinions of others and let others do the thinking (or lack thereof) for them. Just being honest.
In academic circles, to just dismiss Josephus is idiocy. I have never heard a reputable scholar do this. Yet, we have a bunch of internet warriors doing it....lol
Originally posted by twhiteheadTrying to box me into the argument from authority mindset...eh?
That is the problem with the argument from authority mindset. You just can't get out of it.
He never asked you to take his word over anyone else's, he explained his reasoning. If you can point to an error in his reasoning, then feel free to do so. Merely quoting someone with a PhD who disagrees does not constitute a good counter argument.
Did you unders ...[text shortened]... ou did not, please ask for clarification. If you did, then explain why his reasoning is unsound.
Although, I have to ask-why do you just discount the authority? There are men and women far more learned in this field than you or I, shouldn't we respect their scholarship? Yes, question it but don't just dismiss it. I'm not arguing from authority but it is overused to say that an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. I stated my backing after referencing Dr. Rogers citing the historical critical method (I suspect you don't know what that is-read Gerald Bray if you like on the history of New Testament Interpretation). He grapples with this thoroughly (the historical critical method). The fact is though, not necessarily you have, but many on this site will refer to authority not their own. I've seen it in previous posts. So lets put this aside-we use authority for good means. Anyone who denies this is, honestly, an academic fool.
The fact is, if a PhD says something and he is well respected by other PhDs then I'll take what they have to say seriously. Clifford Rogers is recognized as the foremost scholar in medieval Europe. Widely published with a PhD from Ohio State University. He's taught at West Point for years. He is an established and recognized figure. Maybe you should tell me how such a recognized scholar could be so absolutely wrong?
I'm putting the burden of proof on you here. I'd enjoy hearing it.
[edit] I know Clifford Rogers pretty well-I can't say 100% certain but I am 99% certain he's not a Christian. He speaks of the Church in medieval Europe (with good reason often) very badly.
Originally posted by AppleChessYou are equating words with ideas I guess?
Thank you for your post. You are equating words with ideas I guess?
Certainly we are called to heed Christ's words. Yet, Christ's words were to bear witness of the truth (John 18:37) and Christ is the truth (John 14:6).
I mean this kindly, but I think you misunderstand the application and proper order of faith. [b]Faith is not so much in what Chri ...[text shortened]... icance.
Jesus came to bear witness of himself-his words attest of himself. It is the person.
Words can be used to convey ideas which is what Jesus did and which is what you seem to continue to fail to consider in the context of the Roosevelt quote.
Certainly we are called to heed Christ's words. Yet, Christ's words were to bear witness of the truth (John 18:37) and Christ is the truth (John 14:6).
Let's look at John 18:37:
Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
The truth of His words. The truth of His ideas. Thanks for citing another example where Jesus emphasized the importance of His words.
BTW, if you're going to cite scripture, please post the content of the verses for the benefit of everyone.
I mean this kindly, but I think you misunderstand the application and proper order of faith. Faith is not so much in what Christ did but what Christ did! The righteous shall live by faith (Romans 1:17-let's not get into discussion on N.T. Wright and the New Perspectives on Paul, fyi I think they are rubbish).
Save the "proper order of faith" for another discussion. It has nothing to do with the salient points of my post.
But this has become a matter of misunderstanding my post. The idea of Christ is nothing without the person. The person is what allows the idea to bear any significance.
Not sure why you think I misunderstood your post. Rather I am disagreeing with your position. Do you normally misconstrue disagreement as "misunderstanding"?
Jesus came to bear witness of himself-his words attest of himself. It is the person.
His words attest to the will of God and the importance of His words :
Matthew 7
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
John 15:7-11
7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love