I have twice in the last few days come across this interesting attitude from Christians, and I thought it deserved a thread as it is actually quite common and I cant think of a reasonable defense (from the theists side).
The first instance was a movie about a black man who assisted with early heart operations. The parents of one of the patients consulted a priest who told them not to go ahead because he felt that if God had made the Child that way then that is what God intended, and we should not go against God. The doctors response was something like "Well if you believe your God is trying to kill the child, so be it, but I am trying to save her."
The second instance was a discussion of designer babies, and again, there were theists who felt that it was interfering with Gods plans. Specifically someone said something like this "God has a plan for each of us before we are born, so you can't interfere."
My argument is that in both cases, it seems to be a case of Theists not wanting to really think about the problem at hand and hiding behind the "God knows best" clause. When you actually think about both cases their logic doesn't add up at all.
What do others think? Are there areas we shouldn't meddle in for fear of interfering with Gods plans?
Originally posted by twhitehead I have twice in the last few days come across this interesting attitude from Christians, and I thought it deserved a thread as it is actually quite common and I cant think of a reasonable defense (from the theists side).
The first instance was a movie about a black man who assisted with early heart operations. The parents of one of the patients consult ...[text shortened]... think? Are there areas we shouldn't meddle in for fear of interfering with Gods plans?
I'm pretty sure God is able to incorporate into His plan anything mankind is able to meddle with. It's not like a genetically engineered human is going to bewilder Him.
Originally posted by epiphinehas I'm pretty sure God is able to incorporate into His plan anything mankind is able to meddle with. It's not like a genetically engineered human is going to bewilder Him.
Well, given that no Christian I have ever met can meaningfully state god's plan, it isn't surprising that any given Christian can declare that X is, or is not, in accordance with god's plan.
Originally posted by Lord Shark Well, given that no Christian I have ever met can meaningfully state god's plan, it isn't surprising that any given Christian can declare that X is, or is not, in accordance with god's plan.
what are you talking about? Gods plan is simple, the earth shall become a paradise, sin and thus imperfection shall be a thing of the past and we shall enjoy life to the full as was planned from the very beginning with the inception of life in a paradisaic state. Gods original purpose was that the paradise should be extended earth wide, it has not changed. Have i been with you so long that you do not know this? how can you say to the forum, i dont know what Gods plan is? Has my teaching been in vain? i despair.
Originally posted by twhitehead I have twice in the last few days come across this interesting attitude from Christians, and I thought it deserved a thread as it is actually quite common and I cant think of a reasonable defense (from the theists side).
The first instance was a movie about a black man who assisted with early heart operations. The parents of one of the patients consult ...[text shortened]... think? Are there areas we shouldn't meddle in for fear of interfering with Gods plans?
I suppose it boils down to what kind of god you believe in.
Originally posted by twhitehead I have twice in the last few days come across this interesting attitude from Christians, and I thought it deserved a thread as it is actually quite common and I cant think of a reasonable defense (from the theists side).
The first instance was a movie about a black man who assisted with early heart operations. The parents of one of the patients consult think? Are there areas we shouldn't meddle in for fear of interfering with Gods plans?
It seems to me that the problem that you have is that not all theists accept these arguments and you are precariously teetering on trying to argue against values they do not hold.
In the first instance it was an improper understanding of why defects occur in that it is due to imperfection that led to the erroneous assertion that God wants people to avoid medical attention in that he causes ailments.
This second statement seems to be indicative of the Calvanistic idea of predestination, in that we are under the influence of fate and that regardless of what we try to achieve, our future is predetermined. Naturally it too is nonsense.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie what are you talking about? Gods plan is simple, the earth shall become a paradise, sin and thus imperfection shall be a thing of the past and we shall enjoy life to the full as was planned from the very beginning with the inception of life in a paradisaic state. Gods original purpose was that the paradise should be extended earth wide, it has not ...[text shortened]... n you say to the forum, i dont know what Gods plan is? Has my teaching been in vain? i despair.
Originally posted by Lord Shark Well, given that no Christian I have ever met can meaningfully state god's plan, it isn't surprising that any given Christian can declare that X is, or is not, in accordance with god's plan.
Originally posted by epiphinehas How many Christians have you met?
Many, and they usually just come up with some vague story lacking in detail and which poses more questions than it answers. For an excellent example of this, see Robbie's attempt above 🙂
Actually that's not quite fair, a lot of them do in fact admit that god's plan cannot meaningfully be stated.
Originally posted by Lord Shark Many, and they usually just come up with some vague story lacking in detail and which poses more questions than it answers. For an excellent example of this, see Robbie's attempt above 🙂
Actually that's not quite fair, a lot of them do in fact admit that god's plan cannot meaningfully be stated.
there was nothing vague about it, its not my fault you are uninitiated in the delicacies of scripture! You asked what Gods purpose is, i told you, you should be happy, but noooooooooooo, its my fault 🙂
Originally posted by robbie carrobie there was nothing vague about it, its not my fault you are uninitiated in the delicacies of scripture! You asked what Gods purpose is, i told you, you should be happy, but noooooooooooo, its my fault 🙂
Sorry, Robbie but if you presented a business plan with that level of detail the response would be laughter.
And that's a simple thing by comparison. You have no timeline, no clear justification for what the purpose of the whole thing is, a set of goals with no clear plan of implementation, or schedule, or any indication of precisely how they will be realised, or indeed why an all-powerful being hasn't managed this already.
It's a train wreck. At least the christians who admit that they can't meaningfully state god's grand plan recognise their own limitations.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie what are you talking about? Gods plan is simple, the earth shall become a paradise, sin and thus imperfection shall be a thing of the past and we shall enjoy life to the full as was planned from the very beginning with the inception of life in a paradisaic state. Gods original purpose was that the paradise should be extended earth wide, it has not ...[text shortened]... n you say to the forum, i dont know what Gods plan is? Has my teaching been in vain? i despair.
And just what good will this lovely paradise be when our sun expands to red giant size and fries God's quaint little paradise?
Originally posted by Badwater And just what good will this lovely paradise be when our sun expands to red giant size and fries God's quaint little paradise?
you doom munger!, if God created the heavens and the earth, why sweat it? are you yet unaware that with him, 'all things are possible'. 🙂
Originally posted by Lord Shark Sorry, Robbie but if you presented a business plan with that level of detail the response would be laughter.
And that's a simple thing by comparison. You have no timeline, no clear justification for what the purpose of the whole thing is, a set of goals with no clear plan of implementation, or schedule, or any indication of precisely how they will be r ...[text shortened]... admit that they can't meaningfully state god's grand plan recognise their own limitations.
tut tut, all is clear, you should realise that one does not make a statement like i did without recourse to the 'reddies'. No justification? No timeline? No clear plan of implementation? why he has not managed it already ? How it shall be realised??, tut tut this is the stuff of trivia!
The "Leave it to God" clause.
29 Mar '10 20:02
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