The "Leave it to God" clause.

nonsense, absolute unadulterated nonsense! Humans have chosen moral independence, they are reaping the consequences of their own actions. What is more God has provided a book, a plan for living which if followed would mitigate almost all suffering, erase all wars, transcend every known national and cultural barrier, dissolve racism, eradicate hunger etc etc. It has been largely ignored and now there are those who would dispense with it altogether and substitute merely human thinking. He has provided an example in the Christ himself, who through some of the most profound teaching that has emerged from humanity, made through an appeal on the basis of love, and look, it is ridiculed, misrepresented and has been subject to futility. The fault is their own, they have chosen it. One can choose to follow divine precepts or ignore them, but one must take responsibility for ones own actions. Wickedness, greed, perversion and injustice shall not be tolerated indefinitely, that is for sure.

Well...you completely sidestepped pretty much every point I made. Presumably you do this because operating under the assumption that ignoring the details provided by the little pictures you can concentrate on a supposed "bigger picture" where good will overcome evil, all will be glorious in the end, etcetra etcetra...
The devil, as they say, is in the details however. In fact, even if we assume for the sake of argument what you say is true; that is, if we all follow the teachings of Jesus in the one correct interpretation of the one correct collection of scriptures then all will be absolutely spiffing later on; that doesn't deal with the fact that at present, and at all points in the past, there exist and have existed those who independently of how others behave will manipulate/ exploit/ harm/ others. Working inductively one may assume this trend will continue into the future, and so your Utopian state of living will either never happen, or can only be realised only if some humans follow the teachings of Jesus.
At present there do indeed exist such people...presumably you are such a person; yet we still live in a world where people through no fault of their own suffer at the hands of others.

Is there perhaps some least number of humans (less than all who exist) that must always live correctly for which your wonderland may come true? or must I wear the same rose-coloured spectacles as yourself and convince myself that there will be a time on this Earth, (for which given it's size can only sustain a finite number of creatures) every person, in spite of their circumstances, state of mind, level of intellect/learning, cultural/religious background will live as your God intended???

If even your God exists, and it believes this, then I question it's transcendental intelligence/wisdom 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
[quote]nonsense, absolute unadulterated nonsense! Humans have chosen moral independence, they are reaping the consequences of their own actions. What is more God has provided a book, a plan for living which if followed would mitigate almost all suffering, erase all wars, transcend every known national and cultural barrier, dissolve racism, eradicate hunger etc ...[text shortened]... od exists, and it believes this, then I question it's transcendental intelligence/wisdom 😕

och yer bum! I sidestepped nothing! details are everything, and when one is able to discern the entire biblical picture one can readily put its constituent parts together to form a whole, anything less is spiritual myopia. Yes but it comes essentially down to an individual basis, whether we ourselves are willing to accept universal sovereignty under God or a course of moral independence, because suffering exists on a personal and a collective level. You see, because of your myopia, you cannot see that quite naturally, those who perpetrate injustice cannot be allowed to remain, can they, for it is evident that, even as we speak, who is there that does not want to live in peace, yet despite it, there is war. The problem that you have , as with all rationalists, is that you deny the divine element. Economics is a monster, war is a monster, exploitation of the planets resources is a monster, my goodness, there is enough to feed the world many times over, yet some billions of persons go to sleep hungry every day and by the time you have read this sentence another child will be dead from malnutrition. Why is that? Quite simply government. Nationalism, greed and corruption, enslavement etc. How many years of human government must it take in order for you people to realise that it is a fallacy? that is where you should remove your rose coloured spectacles. The problems facing mankind are huge, i would say insurmountable from a human standpoint. who has caused these problems? was it God tht depleted the fish stocks? deforested the rainforest? used Cfcs and bore a whole in the ozone? How much will it take for us to realise that moral independence comes at a price, i dunno?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
och yer bum! I sidestepped nothing! details are everything, and when one is able to discern the entire biblical picture one can readily put its constituent parts together to form a whole, anything less is spiritual myopia. Yes but it comes essentially down to an individual basis, whether we ourselves are willing to accept universal sovereignty unde ...[text shortened]... zone? How much will it take for us to realise that moral independence comes at a price, i dunno?

You mention a collection of people/ organisations X that perpetuate grief/injustice/etc... and I agree with you, they exist. (as my last two posts suggest) But you seem adverse to addressing the notion that there exist also a collection of people/organisations Y (who aren't in X) that get screwed over by those in X.
I'm going to adopt a different approach, and let you take me on a wonderful journey as you answer:

What is the series of steps if we assume such a Y exists (and be sure I'll challenge you if you suppose one might not), that people in Y ahould take in order to bring about the nirvana promised by you and others? in particular...how do they deal with X?

Originally posted by Agerg
You mention a collection of people/ organisations X that perpetuate grief/injustice/etc... and I agree with you, they exist. (as my last two posts suggest) But you seem adverse to addressing the notion that there exist also a collection of people/organisations Y (who aren't in X) that get screwed over by those in X.
I'm going to adopt a different approach, an bring about the nirvana promised by you and others? in particular...how do they deal with X?

nothing, for it cannot be done on a human basis, this is the point i am trying to make, the problems are superhuman and the agency needs to be superhuman. This is why i am a theist and why i advocate theocracy. It is the theocracy which shall deal with X, please give your attention to this small, ancient but never the less, consequential verse.

(Daniel 2:44) 44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

what is Daniel referring to when he states 'those kings'? An examination of the context helps us realise that it is the succession of dominant world powers which stretches right down to our time. what shall happen to those political entities? Gods Kingdom shall be set up, during their dominion and it shall 'crush', those political institutions which oppose it. Yes i realise that it is a rather radical solution, then so is chemotherapy for a carcinogenic and malignant growth.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nothing, for it cannot be done on a human basis, this is the point i am trying to make, the problems are superhuman and the agony needs to be superhuman. This is why i am a theist and why i advocate theocracy.

Then if we humans can do nothing...why does your god prolong the suffering by it's inaction? :]

Originally posted by Agerg
Then if we humans can do nothing...why does your god prolong the suffering by it's inaction? :]

i did not state that we can do nothing, i merely stated that the outcome shall ultimately be determined by God in the case of those who oppose his will.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i did not state that we can do nothing, i merely stated that the outcome shall ultimately be determined by God in the case of those who oppose his will.

Oh really?...ok, what *can* we do? and how will this decrease the amount of suffering in the world? (such that your god is justified in doing nothing whilst innocents die all manner of horrific deaths etc...)

*edit* Just saw your edit...I have a point I'd like to make on that after you resolve this one.

Originally posted by Agerg
Oh really?...ok, what *can* we do? and how will this decrease the amount of suffering in the world? (such that your god is justified in doing nothing whilst innocents die all manner of horrific deaths etc...)

you can mitigate suffering through education, can you not? through the dissemination and promulgation of Biblical principles for example. Persons are being freed from enslavement to all sorts of painful practices. Alcoholism, prostitution, drug abuse, criminality, nationalism and warfare and even western ills, materialism and its emptiness, self gratification and hedonism. Are you willing to deny that this is the case? I will try to answer as best and as honestly as i can, but my time is limited 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you can mitigate suffering through education, can you not? through the dissemination and promulgation of Biblical principles for example. Persons are being freed from enslavement to all sorts of painful practices. Alcoholism, prostitution, drug abuse, criminality, nationalism and warfare and even western ills, materialism and its emptiness, self gr ...[text shortened]... s is the case? I will try to answer as best and as honestly as i can, but my time is limited 🙂

I see...so teaching Biblical principles (even to those who are aware of them or believe in a different god) stops people from remaining alcholics/drug abusers/... and that's why your god does nothing? (like, say, magically but still harmfully making alcohol taste unbearably offensive to those hooked on the stuff). I'll assume Christians never do such things then.

and how does spreading the word of Jesus stop people from starving/being massacred/being run over/...?

Originally posted by Agerg
I see...so teaching Biblical principles (even to those who are aware of them or believe in a different god) stops people from remaining alcholics/drug abusers/... and that's why your god does nothing? (like, say, magically but still harmfully making alcohol taste unbearably offensive to those hooked on the stuff). I'll assume Christians never do such things th ...[text shortened]... does spreading the word of Jesus stop people from starving/being massacred/being run over/...?

i am not sure what your objection is, we are emissaries substituting for Christ, we give of our own time and effort, at our own expense, in the face of persecution to help anyone freely grasp and apply these principles in their lives. I notice that you did not nor cannot deny that this mitigates suffering, and the fact of the matter is, we are doing so on Gods behalf, therefore your claim that he has done nothing and continues to do nothing is baseless. Indeed, when was the first and last time anyone came to you personally to help you from a government agency, free of charge at a time and location which suited you? Never ill bet.

in the case of alcohol he does not do so because it is not his fault that persons choose to abuse it, is it? he did not make eurofighter typhoons, Mig 29 Fulcrum or F-22 raptors did he? when will you realise that as ever person is a free moral agent they must take responsibility for their own actions, would you have that we were mere robots?

yes you are correct, Christians should enjoy alcohol, but not abuse it.

It stops persons from starving because God promises to look after those who are practising righteousness.

(Psalm 37:25) . . .A young man I used to be, I have also grown old, And yet I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely, Nor his offspring looking for bread.

(2 Corinthians 4:7-9) However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not that out of ourselves. We are pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out;  we are persecuted, but not left in the lurch; we are thrown down, but not destroyed.

It stops persons being run over because we have a high regard for the sanctity of life and take necessary precautions when crossing the road.

It stops persons being massacred in wars because we do not engage in warfare, even if we are captured, incarcerated, tortured and killed, it is not the end of the matter, for we have a hope that we shall, at some future point be resurrected and thus, our faith is able to transcend even death. This plus the fact that one would do well to flee a war zone is nothing less than practical advise.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am not sure what your objection is, we are emissaries substituting for Christ, we give of our own time and effort, at our own expense, in the face of persecution to help anyone freely grasp and apply these principles in their lives. I notice that you did not nor cannot deny that this mitigates suffering, and the fact of the matter is, we are doing ...[text shortened]... s plus the fact that one would do well to flee a war zone is nothing less than practical advise.

Oh dear. Surely you know that it is time to play the mystery defence? Otherwise your position is lost.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Oh dear. Surely you know that it is time to play the mystery defence? Otherwise your position is lost.

i have stated everything openly and honestly, you people have nothing. Bible is practical, sorry, you have zilch.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Oh dear. Surely you know that it is time to play the mystery defence? Otherwise your position is lost.

your Orca food Sharkboy

i am not sure what your objection is, we are emissaries substituting for Christ, we give of our own time and effort, at our own expense, in the face of persecution to help anyone freely grasp and apply these principles in their lives. I notice that you did not nor cannot deny that this mitigates suffering, and the fact of the matter is, we are there on Gods behalf, therefore your claim that he has done nothing and continues to do nothing is baseless. Indeed, when was the first and last time anyone came to you personally to help you from a government agency, free of charge at a time and location which suited you? he does not do so because it is not his fault that persons choose to abuse it, is it? he did not make eurofighter typhoons, Mig 29 Fulcrum or F-22 raptors did he? when will you realise that as ever person is a free moral agent they must take responsibility for their own actions, would you have that we were mere robots?

yes you are correct, Christians should enjoy alcohol, but not abuse it.

It stops persons from starving because God promises to look after those who are practising righteousness.

(Psalm 37:25) . . .A young man I used to be, I have also grown old, And yet I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely, Nor his offspring looking for bread.

(2 Corinthians 4:7-9) 7 However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not that out of ourselves. We are pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out; we are persecuted, but not left in the lurch; we are thrown down, but not destroyed.

It stops persons being run over because we have a high regard for the sanctity of life and take necessary precautions when crossing the road.

It stops persons being massacred in wars because we do not engage in warfare, even if we are captured, incarcerated, tortured and killed, it is not the end of the matter, for we have a hope that we shall, at some future point be resurrected and thus, our faith is able to transcend even death. This plus the fact that one would do well to flee a war zone is nothing less than practical advise.

i am not sure what your objection is, we are emissaries substituting for Christ, we give of our own time and effort, at our own expense, in the face of persecution to help anyone freely grasp and apply these principles in their lives.
I see no virtue in proselytising...Teaching people how to be more agreeable members of a society or community is one thing, and you might choose to do that through the words of a ancient human named Jesus (who if he did exist was, I assume, was not the son of your god) if you wish; but this can also be done through secular means.

I notice that you did not nor cannot deny that this mitigates suffering
I'm still not sure if you have noticed that the suffering (like mass starvation in Africa, oppressive regimes, rape/murder victims, child abuse, etc...) that I refer to is generally applied to those who have acted in no way so as to be held accountable. The "debatable" indoctrination based mitigation of suffering of say, substance abusers (who for the most part, I would argue, got hooked through some fault of their own) is virtuous (in a local sense that is) if it works, but again such ends can be acheived through non-religious methods.

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I don't want you to wriggle away from my main point of contention...Given that your god is powerful enough to prevent large scale suffering (mass starvation in Africa, oppressive regimes, rape/murder victims, child abuse, etc...) that we cannot (due, say, to those who would oppose us)...Why does he remain inert?
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we are there on Gods behalf, therefore your claim that he has done nothing and continues to do nothing is baseless
If you are feeding them, or providing them with the means to feed themselves, removing them from dangerous situations (like earth-quake zones or AK-47 toting madmen), teaching them to be nice people etc... then this is all good but it is *you* doing the work (under the questionable *assumption* your god exists). Your god is doing nothing. My claim is far from baseless.

Indeed, when was the first and last time anyone came to you personally to help you from a government agency, free of charge at a time and location which suited you?
Again, this is a service provided by you and others on behalf of an agent you *think* exists, and provided also by secular agencies...Your god is doing nothing.

he did not make eurofighter typhoons, Mig 29 Fulcrum or F-22 raptors did he? when will you realise that as ever person is a free moral agent they must take responsibility for their own actions
Again you're pushing the responibility for faults of a collection of people onto all people. In particular, those for whom these fighter jets may direct their mischief (did they all build them too?).

would you have that we were mere robots?
Not sure where this came from but I'll save my response to this for a later post/thread.

yes you are correct, Christians should enjoy alcohol, but not abuse it.
Not quite the point I was making, nor is it one I care to spend great deal of time on. I may give a longer response later.

It stops persons from starving because God promises to look after those who are practising righteousness.
No, this is not true. The amish who got shot to death on October 2, 2006 received no such protection. For other examples allow me to reference the Holocaust (what you may claim to be the religious affiliations of those who purpotrated the crimes, is another unrelated matter and if memory serves me correctly, I'd disagree) and give you a biased (in your favour) wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
(Psalm 37:25) . . .A young man I used to be, I have also grown old, And yet I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely, Nor his offspring looking for bread.
So this passage *claims/alleges*.

(2 Corinthians 4:7-9) 7 However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not that out of ourselves. We are pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out; we are persecuted, but not left in the lurch; we are thrown down, but not destroyed.
Again...so it is "claimed" by your holy book.

It stops persons being run over because we have a high regard for the sanctity of life and take necessary precautions when crossing the road.
The Bible has nothing to do with me looking both ways before I cross and does nothing to help, say, little children who get run over by an excessive speeder on a school road

It stops persons being massacred in wars because we do not engage in warfare, even if we are captured, incarcerated, tortured and killed, it is not the end of the matter, for we have a hope that we shall, at some future point be resurrected and thus, our faith is able to transcend even death. This plus the fact that one would do well to flee a war zone is nothing less than practical advise.
Until I have established your god (and associated afterlife) exists, this response misses the mark. Again, how does your Bible stop those who care to start the warfare/torturing/massacring?


You'll notice that I've tried to answer every point you have made here...those where I have failed to be verbose you are free to make a different thread on the issues and I'll be courteous enough to do my best in giving you satisfaction on the matters. As far as my responses to your scripture quotes, I make no such promises because they hold (at present) little merit to me.

I would now ask again that you give priority to, and address the following question:

Given that your god is powerful enough to prevent large scale suffering (like the children who have died as I write this post, mass starvation in Africa, oppressive regimes, rape/murder victims, child abuse, etc...) that we cannot (due, say, to those who would oppose us)...Why does he remain inert?

Well you can't say I didn't warn you Robbie 🙂