Originally posted by twhiteheadI think God gave you a brain, if you are hungry it is time to eat, if you are
I have twice in the last few days come across this interesting attitude from Christians, and I thought it deserved a thread as it is actually quite common and I cant think of a reasonable defense (from the theists side).
The first instance was a movie about a black man who assisted with early heart operations. The parents of one of the patients consult ...[text shortened]... think? Are there areas we shouldn't meddle in for fear of interfering with Gods plans?
sick do what you know to do there. If a VOICE FROM ABOVE says to you,
do nothing and you think it is God, go where your faith leads, I would not
leave myself or my kids at risk because someone else thinks they know
what God wants.
Kelly
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMy apologies for omitting to note that in the second case at least, there was a Christian who spoke up and said they saw nothing wrong with designer babies and did not see it as conflicting with their religion. I have no doubt that something similar applies in the first case, or heart operations would not have become so popular.
It seems to me that the problem that you have is that not all theists accept these arguments and you are precariously teetering on trying to argue against values they do not hold.
However, my question is not about specific cases. It seems to me that most such cases seem to be more a case of using God as an excuse to resist change, or simply to not think about difficult issues. And my question is whether or not such an excuse is ever valid.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieExcept apparently creating the paradise he planed to. Or are we all simply stuck in his early failed attempts?
are you yet unaware that with him, 'all things are possible'. 🙂
You really only have two choices, admit that he has thus far failed, or give some explanation as to why the status quo is a necessary requirement for some future paradise.
Originally posted by twhiteheadif god has plans, he probably knows best than to make them in such a manner as to be interfered by men. it is like an architect making a bridge that could be eaten by ants.
I have twice in the last few days come across this interesting attitude from Christians, and I thought it deserved a thread as it is actually quite common and I cant think of a reasonable defense (from the theists side).
The first instance was a movie about a black man who assisted with early heart operations. The parents of one of the patients consult ...[text shortened]... think? Are there areas we shouldn't meddle in for fear of interfering with Gods plans?
just do what you think is right. any plan of god should have human fail-safes built in.
Originally posted by Lord SharkSad, but more than likely true. You've probably not met a lot that can explain basic Christianity, either. Fortunately (for them, at least) salvation is not predicated on their ability to either explain or even fully understand either of those categories of doctrine.
Well, given that no Christian I have ever met can meaningfully state god's plan, it isn't surprising that any given Christian can declare that X is, or is not, in accordance with god's plan.
Ain't grace marvelous?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow it shall be realised??, tut tut this is the stuff of trivia!
tut tut, all is clear, you should realise that one does not make a statement like i did without recourse to the 'reddies'. No justification? No timeline? No clear plan of implementation? why he has not managed it already ? How it shall be realised??, tut tut this is the stuff of trivia!
translation: I can't meaningfully state god's plan. I can waffle about paradise and give vague promises that all shall be well, but that's about it.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHAin't grace marvelous?
Sad, but more than likely true. You've probably not met a lot that can explain basic Christianity, either. Fortunately (for them, at least) salvation is not predicated on their ability to either explain or even fully understand either of those categories of doctrine.
Ain't grace marvelous?
It would be. 🙂
Originally posted by FreakyKBHNo, it has always seemed to me to be arbitrary, ridiculous and in total contradiction to claims that God is just.
Ain't grace marvelous?
It is arbitrary since it seems that those that are chosen are chosen arbitrarily based largely on where they are born and the religion of their parents, or other similarly arbitrary factors.
It is ridiculous because the condition seems to be the acceptance of certain conditions yet an understanding of what exactly is involved seems to be irrelevant.
The contradiction between the above and justice is painfully obvious.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt is arbitrary since it seems that those that are chosen are chosen arbitrarily based largely on where they are born and the religion of their parents, or other similarly arbitrary factors.
No, it has always seemed to me to be arbitrary, ridiculous and in total contradiction to claims that God is just.
It is arbitrary since it seems that those that are chosen are chosen arbitrarily based largely on where they are born and the religion of their parents, or other similarly arbitrary factors.
It is ridiculous because the condition seems to b ...[text shortened]... d seems to be irrelevant.
The contradiction between the above and justice is painfully obvious.
Your understanding of the situation is in err. You are imagining a scenario which simply doesn't exist. God's plan already considered any situation anyone can imagine, and even beyond the same imaginations. There are no weak links to His plan, not even that guy stranded on a deserted island and raised by the island iguanas--- God has it all covered, thank you very much.
It is ridiculous because the condition seems to be the acceptance of certain conditions yet an understanding of what exactly is involved seems to be irrelevant.
Well, if the "certain conditions" refers to accepting a gift for which one can do nothing in return, I guess you have a leg to stand on with the argument. However, I'm pretty sure most folks would say that the conditions of that scenario are pretty easy to both understand and follow.
The receiver of a gift doesn't need to understand all that gift entails; they don't need to know how the gift will impact their lives; they don't need to know or even understand the giver--- or the giver's intentions. The receiver can--- and often does--- simply receive the gift. Receipt (and receipt alone) is all that is necessary for the transaction to be considered complete.
The contradiction between the above and justice is painfully obvious.
Justice--- perfect justice--- is the name of the game. While the believer benefits from God's grace, our standing before Him, indeed, our entire relationship, is only possible because of justice. When God blesses me, He does so on the basis of justice.
Originally posted by Lord SharkI play the flute and you refuse to dance on the premise that you dont like the tune, so be it.
[b]How it shall be realised??, tut tut this is the stuff of trivia!
translation: I can't meaningfully state god's plan. I can waffle about paradise and give vague promises that all shall be well, but that's about it.[/b]
Originally posted by twhiteheaduugh, have i also been with you so long Whitey that you are also unaware? I despair, here is why God has not yet instituted the paradise as per his original purpose.
Except apparently creating the paradise he planed to. Or are we all simply stuck in his early failed attempts?
You really only have two choices, admit that he has thus far failed, or give some explanation as to why the status quo is a necessary requirement for some future paradise.
(2 Peter 3:9-10) . . .Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.
even yet he is exercising patience and gathering persons who may be deemed worthy of everlasting life, for the door of opportunity has not been closed yet!
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou see injustice in all of that?
No, it has always seemed to me to be arbitrary, ridiculous and in total contradiction to claims that God is just.
It is arbitrary since it seems that those that are chosen are chosen arbitrarily based largely on where they are born and the religion of their parents, or other similarly arbitrary factors.
It is ridiculous because the condition seems to b ...[text shortened]... d seems to be irrelevant.
The contradiction between the above and justice is painfully obvious.
Kelly
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThere are so many problems with your explanation I wouldn't know where to begin. Lets start with the fact that these people he is waiting for are mostly not even born yet. Why doesn't he simply allow them to be born into the paradise?
even yet he is exercising patience and gathering persons who may be deemed worthy of everlasting life, for the door of opportunity has not been closed yet!
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWell then I guess we will have to add you to the list of those who cannot (or choose not to) "meaningfully state god's plan".
Your understanding of the situation is in err.
God has it all covered, thank you very much.
I am sure he has. However, the scenario you described does not, therefore you can't have been describing Gods plan.
The receiver of a gift doesn't need to understand all that gift entails; they don't need to know how the gift will impact their lives; they don't need to know or even understand the giver--- or the giver's intentions. The receiver can--- and often does--- simply receive the gift. Receipt (and receipt alone) is all that is necessary for the transaction to be considered complete.
Yet it remains ridiculous that God would make condition it a condition for anything that someone receive a gift that he doesn't understand. Even more ridiculous when he need not understand the giver nor the givers intentions.
Sounds like God specifically wants stupid people only.
Justice--- perfect justice--- is the name of the game. While the believer benefits from God's grace, our standing before Him, indeed, our entire relationship, is only possible because of justice. When God blesses me, He does so on the basis of justice.
Or so you say, but then I know your sense of justice is warped to the extent that it has no real meaning, and certainly bears no relationship to the normal meaning of the word.