The "Leave it to God" clause.
13 Apr '10 08:521 editI see no virtue in proselytising
please tell the forum what experience you have of proselytising? Indeed if you had witnessed how bible truth is helping others to mitigate suffering you would not have uttered such a statement so thoroughly devoid of reason. There are Arabs and Israelis who have transcended years of hatred and violence. There were Tutsi and Hutu who shielded each other from genocide, there are prostitutes, without hope being given a release, drug addicts over coming addiction, family's strewn apart by alcoholism being sewn back together. Indeed, it is of no surprise that you see no virtue in proselyting, for you know absolutely nothing of it, nor of its effects, which is self evident from your rather, well, ill conceived objection. The Bible is a very powerful tool for overcoming all sorts of suffering, but you wouldn't know that.
Your god is doing nothing.
Again another piece of nonsense, for the only reason that we are stepping forth as emissaries to help persons, is because of our God. You are obviously unaware that it was God who inspired the scriptures that we utilise to help persons overcome suffering, who gave the ordinances and instructions to help the adherent, that it was God who through his will, sent an example for us to imitate of which the world was not worthy of and of which he himself stated,'i do nothing of my own initiative, but just as the father has willed', Indeed by your denial of the divine element you can no more put the pieces of the jigsaw together so at to see the constituent parts and make a whole as if the pieces were round and ill fitting.
Again you're pushing the responsibility for faults of a collection of people onto all people
what are you talking about? the illustration was used for you once and all to realise that humans are responsible for their own actions. technology is a great thing, it can be used in the field of medical science to alleviate much suffering, but it can also be abused and made into weapons of warfare, as was illustrated, what this has got to do with the senseless and unfounded proposition that i 'push the responsibility for faults onto all people', is nothing more than a denial of fact, weapons kill, humans are responsible.
No, this is not true. The Amish who got shot to death on October 2, 2006 received no such protection.
Sorry what has being shot got to do with someone who is hungry? Was he in someone's field and got shot while gleaning for food? was he shot because he was starving? what are you talking about for the two biblical references were given with respect to food. The references that i gave were neither biased for we did not author the article, whether you disagree is neither here nor there, for we are interested in ascertaining truth and promulgating facts, not dicing with mere opinions, and those unfounded at that. The fact of the matter is, Biblical principles have helped countless thousands face ultimate tests to their faith and their integrity, even in the face of death. Persecutors were astounded, yes utterly astounded at the calm and bravery with which persons who faced death in the Nazi concentration camps conducted themselves, you may wish to contrast that with those without hope and devoid of reason.
The Bible has nothing to do with me looking both ways before I cross and does nothing to help, say, little children who get run over by an excessive speeder on a school road
Bumf, the Bible has everything to do with it. Why is the excessive speeder speeding? because he has ignored the laws of traffic regulation, in direct opposition to the Bibles ordinances that he should obey the secular authorities in this matter. Had he done so death could have been avoided. Secondly, it is understood that Children should not play between parked cars, therefore a wise parent shall take precautions to inculcate in their children respect for the sanctity of life as per the Bible instructs them to do. Thus in this specific case the dangers of traffic shall be highlighted.
how does your Bible stop those who care to start the warfare/torturing/massacring?
It does not claim to stop those who perpetrate these things, therefore is this not what is termed a 'straw man', argument, in effect arguing against values which we ourselves do not indeed hold? It does state that ultimately God shall remove those who are cruel and unjust. Never the less, if you do not engage in warfare are you more or less likely to be killed in war? If you do not engage in anti government activity, criminality or anything else that may lead to your incarceration and torture are you more or less likely to suffer under it? If you do not build your house upon the San Andreas fault are you more or less likely to suffer earthquakes?I do not deny that innocents are killed, indeed the Bible makes this quite plain,
(Ecclesiastes 9:11) I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.
however right now persons are being taught to give up warfare (perhaps you would like to read of former soldiers, even former enemies who are now brothers to each other), to overcome national and cultural barriers, to embrace all as brothers and sisters, all because of the will of our God. This fact Agerg you cannot deny, the Bible is practical in helping persons overcome suffering and those practices associated with it, for it aims at the very core of what motivates a person, their inner personality and it is beautiful in our eyes for doing so. Please tell me what weapons you can form against love? You make yourself my enemy, i still love you? Indeed what greater motivational force is there than love?
Why does he remain inert?
he has not remained inert, far from it, as i have described in some detail. Suffering is caused because of greed, injustice exploitation. Does God not make it rain upon the righteous and unrighteous so that food is abundant? It is not his doing that on one side of the world persons are dying because of overeating and on the other persons are dying because of not having enough to eat. It is economics, greed and the mismanagement of the earth's resources that are to blame, in essence human governments and those who advocate them.
The question that you should really be asking is why he has permitted suffering.
please tell the forum what experience you have of proselytising? Indeed if you had witnessed how bible truth is helping others to mitigate suffering you would not have uttered such a statement so thoroughly devoid of reason. There are Arabs and Israelis who have transcended years of hatred and violence. There were Tutsi and Hutu who shielded each other from genocide, there are prostitutes, without hope being given a release, drug addicts over coming addiction, family's strewn apart by alcoholism being sewn back together. Indeed, it is of no surprise that you see no virtue in proselyting, for you know absolutely nothing of it, nor of its effects, which is self evident from your rather, well, ill conceived objection. The Bible is a very powerful tool for overcoming all sorts of suffering, but you wouldn't know that.
Your god is doing nothing.
Again another piece of nonsense, for the only reason that we are stepping forth as emissaries to help persons, is because of our God. You are obviously unaware that it was God who inspired the scriptures that we utilise to help persons overcome suffering, who gave the ordinances and instructions to help the adherent, that it was God who through his will, sent an example for us to imitate of which the world was not worthy of and of which he himself stated,'i do nothing of my own initiative, but just as the father has willed', Indeed by your denial of the divine element you can no more put the pieces of the jigsaw together so at to see the constituent parts and make a whole as if the pieces were round and ill fitting.
Again you're pushing the responsibility for faults of a collection of people onto all people
what are you talking about? the illustration was used for you once and all to realise that humans are responsible for their own actions. technology is a great thing, it can be used in the field of medical science to alleviate much suffering, but it can also be abused and made into weapons of warfare, as was illustrated, what this has got to do with the senseless and unfounded proposition that i 'push the responsibility for faults onto all people', is nothing more than a denial of fact, weapons kill, humans are responsible.
No, this is not true. The Amish who got shot to death on October 2, 2006 received no such protection.
Sorry what has being shot got to do with someone who is hungry? Was he in someone's field and got shot while gleaning for food? was he shot because he was starving? what are you talking about for the two biblical references were given with respect to food. The references that i gave were neither biased for we did not author the article, whether you disagree is neither here nor there, for we are interested in ascertaining truth and promulgating facts, not dicing with mere opinions, and those unfounded at that. The fact of the matter is, Biblical principles have helped countless thousands face ultimate tests to their faith and their integrity, even in the face of death. Persecutors were astounded, yes utterly astounded at the calm and bravery with which persons who faced death in the Nazi concentration camps conducted themselves, you may wish to contrast that with those without hope and devoid of reason.
The Bible has nothing to do with me looking both ways before I cross and does nothing to help, say, little children who get run over by an excessive speeder on a school road
Bumf, the Bible has everything to do with it. Why is the excessive speeder speeding? because he has ignored the laws of traffic regulation, in direct opposition to the Bibles ordinances that he should obey the secular authorities in this matter. Had he done so death could have been avoided. Secondly, it is understood that Children should not play between parked cars, therefore a wise parent shall take precautions to inculcate in their children respect for the sanctity of life as per the Bible instructs them to do. Thus in this specific case the dangers of traffic shall be highlighted.
how does your Bible stop those who care to start the warfare/torturing/massacring?
It does not claim to stop those who perpetrate these things, therefore is this not what is termed a 'straw man', argument, in effect arguing against values which we ourselves do not indeed hold? It does state that ultimately God shall remove those who are cruel and unjust. Never the less, if you do not engage in warfare are you more or less likely to be killed in war? If you do not engage in anti government activity, criminality or anything else that may lead to your incarceration and torture are you more or less likely to suffer under it? If you do not build your house upon the San Andreas fault are you more or less likely to suffer earthquakes?I do not deny that innocents are killed, indeed the Bible makes this quite plain,
(Ecclesiastes 9:11) I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.
however right now persons are being taught to give up warfare (perhaps you would like to read of former soldiers, even former enemies who are now brothers to each other), to overcome national and cultural barriers, to embrace all as brothers and sisters, all because of the will of our God. This fact Agerg you cannot deny, the Bible is practical in helping persons overcome suffering and those practices associated with it, for it aims at the very core of what motivates a person, their inner personality and it is beautiful in our eyes for doing so. Please tell me what weapons you can form against love? You make yourself my enemy, i still love you? Indeed what greater motivational force is there than love?
Why does he remain inert?
he has not remained inert, far from it, as i have described in some detail. Suffering is caused because of greed, injustice exploitation. Does God not make it rain upon the righteous and unrighteous so that food is abundant? It is not his doing that on one side of the world persons are dying because of overeating and on the other persons are dying because of not having enough to eat. It is economics, greed and the mismanagement of the earth's resources that are to blame, in essence human governments and those who advocate them.
The question that you should really be asking is why he has permitted suffering.
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