The "Leave it to God" clause.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I keep seeing people make this claim, and I actually take offence. Which of my choices was it that "ruined it"? Either explain how I had a part in it, or retract your statement.

[b]Being in other countries or being here there
are pressures to keep us from God, the pressures are different but they
are real.

Correct you have no choice in who eem to be able to give a straight answer. Why? What is so hard about answering the question?

[/b]I said yes to that, as well as all other things too, but bottom line the
only thing that matters is your choice. You are not going to be able to
claim you didn't make that choice, because of someone else.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I said yes to that, as well as all other things too, but bottom line the
only thing that matters is your choice. You are not going to be able to
claim you didn't make that choice, because of someone else.
Kelly[/b]

You cannot have it both ways. You are being illogical.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You cannot have it both ways. You are being illogical.

No I'm not I can affect the world/choices others make including my kids,
but in the end it is the their choices that will matter. At some point they
too are going to have to either accept or reject those thing I teach and
make things their own. As I pointed out to you, being born into a Christian
family does not mean your going to be a Christian, being born out of one
does not mean you have to reject Jesus Christ either, at some point we all
make our choices.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No I'm not I can affect the world/choices others make including my kids,
but in the end it is the their choices that will matter.

And I still claim that that sentence is self contradictory.
You cannot both affect a choice and have no effect on it at the same time. Its illogical.

If I am going to choose between A and B and if reason C has an effect on my choice, then I cannot claim that effect D is the effect that matters when making the choice. Either C has an effect or it doesn't. You cannot have it both ways.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And I still claim that that sentence is self contradictory.
You cannot both affect a choice and have no effect on it at the same time. Its illogical.

If I am going to choose between A and B and if reason C has an effect on my choice, then I cannot claim that effect D is the effect that matters when making the choice. Either C has an effect or it doesn't. You cannot have it both ways.

We can setup the world around our kids to be whatever we set it up as,
but in the end, the kids make their own choices, I cannot force them in to
anything. It is as I told you, we each make that choice ourselves, I can
push or pull any where I want and they will be pushed or pulled, but in
the end, it is their choice not mine to make.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We can setup the world around our kids to be whatever we set it up as,
but in the end, the kids make their own choices, I cannot force them in to
anything. It is as I told you, we each make that choice ourselves, I can
push or pull any where I want and they will be pushed or pulled, but in
the end, it is their choice not mine to make.
Kelly

You are still being very unclear and not resolving your basic contradiction.
Either my parents religion has an impact on my choice of religion, or it doesn't. If it does, then it has an impact that cannot be ignored or denied (as you seem to want to do). If it doesn't, then how do you explain the fact that most people retain the religion of their parents?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what are you talking about? Gods plan is simple, the earth shall become a paradise, sin and thus imperfection shall be a thing of the past and we shall enjoy life to the full as was planned from the very beginning with the inception of life in a paradisaic state. Gods original purpose was that the paradise should be extended earth wide, it has not ...[text shortened]... n you say to the forum, i dont know what Gods plan is? Has my teaching been in vain? i despair.

He sure is a slow worker. How many billions of years of combined human suffering does he not care enough to stop?

Originally posted by UzumakiAi
He sure is a slow worker. How many billions of years of combined human suffering does he not care enough to stop?

billions of years????, come come my learned friend, there are but six thousand years of recorded human history. Which of the most catastrophic events in human history would you like to pin on God? First World war? Second World War? China under Mao Zedong's regime? Stating that he does not care is of course unfounded, for he has provided a basis for which a person may be redeemed from death itself and ultimately suffering. Humans have brought suffering upon themselves, through greed, mismanagement of the earth's resources, wars, nationalism and attempts to enslave other humans. Which of these would you like to pin on God?

Originally posted by UzumakiAi
He sure is a slow worker. How many billions of years of combined human suffering does he not care enough to stop?

Gods greatest gift to humans was "free will". It is with this gift that we have our greatest potential and this gift which leads to our greatest suffering.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Gods greatest gift to humans was "free will". It is with this gift that we have our greatest potential and this gift which leads to our greatest suffering.

This idea is clearly seductive but I have found it to be unconvincing. It is still a mystery to me as to why people are convinced by this.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
billions of years????, come come my learned friend, there are but six thousand years of recorded human history. Which of the most catastrophic events in human history would you like to pin on God? First World war? Second World War? China under Mao Zedong's regime? Stating that he does not care is of course unfounded, for he has provided a basis f ...[text shortened]... ationalism and attempts to enslave other humans. Which of these would you like to pin on God?

You appear to have misunderstood him. He was talking about God not stopping those events, not pinning those events on God.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Gods greatest gift to humans was "free will".

Yet most people cant seem to get a grip on what free will actually is. As you can see a few posts back, kelly just cant deal with the fact that free will is not entirely free.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You appear to have misunderstood him. He was talking about God not stopping those events, not pinning those events on God.

therefore if God did not intervene it cannot be construed that he is responsible for suffering by his non intervention, this is the point i was making, perhaps it evaded you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
therefore if God did not intervene it cannot be construed that he is responsible for suffering by his non intervention, this is the point i was making, perhaps it evaded you?

Of course he can be held responsible...Most people that suffer, suffer because the one or ones causing that suffering are big enough, strong enough, numerous enough,..., wealthy enough that they force it to happen. Moreover, force it to happen when the 'sufferee' clearly doesn't want it. You might as well claim it is ok for a parent to let his/her children "fight it out to the death" just so long as he/she doesn't intervene....even if the one who is losing is only 3 and is helpless to defend himself against his 8 year old brother.

Of course, people:
- getting their guts ripped out by shrapnel
- run over by perfectly working, speeding cars,
- being raped/molested
- starving to death whilst their parents play World of Warcraft
.
.
.
- Dying a long excrutiating death due to cancer

is all in God's plan 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
Of course he can be held responsible...Most people that suffer, suffer because the one or ones causing that suffering are big enough, strong enough, numerous enough,..., wealthy enough that they force it to happen. Moreover, force it to happen when the 'sufferee' clearly doesn't want it. You might as well claim it is ok for a parent to let his/her children "fi raft
.
.
.
- Dying a long excrutiating death due to cancer

is all in God's plan 😕

nonsense, absolute unadulterated nonsense! Humans have chosen moral independence, they are reaping the consequences of their own actions. What is more God has provided a book, a plan for living which if followed would mitigate almost all suffering, erase all wars, transcend every known national and cultural barrier, dissolve racism, eradicate hunger etc etc. It has been largely ignored and now there are those who would dispense with it altogether and substitute merely human thinking. He has provided an example in the Christ himself, who through some of the most profound teaching that has emerged from humanity, made through an appeal on the basis of love, and look, it is ridiculed, misrepresented and has been subject to futility. The fault is their own, they have chosen it. One can choose to follow divine precepts or ignore them, but one must take responsibility for ones own actions. Wickedness, greed, perversion and injustice shall not be tolerated indefinitely, that is for sure.