The "Leave it to God" clause.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think that what religion we have as adults is largely based on what religion our parents had, and the prevailing religion in the area we live in. I therefore see it as largely a matter of chance that one is Christian.
If entry to heaven is predicated on being Christian, then it seems to me rather unjust as it is equivalent to randomly handing out entry tickets.

Than what I said I believe covers it.
We by our choices live where we do, the result of that is that we have our
kids there and so you end up with social pressures of that region. Which
will result in our grand kids facing the same things, until someone one
makes the choice to move some where else and then the whole thing
starts anew.

We have our kids and we teach our kids as we see fit, again this is us
putting our choices into action.

None of those things can stop anyone from becoming a Christian, and
neither does being born into a Christian family cause one to be forced
into being a Christian either.

That does not fit reality.
So I don't see any injustice.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
That does not fit reality.
So I don't see any injustice.
Kelly

What does not 'fit reality'? I am still not following you.
Do you dispute my claim that religion is largely a function of chance?
Or are you arguing that religion is largely a result of your parents choices?
I am afraid it is not at all clear what you are saying.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What does not 'fit reality'? I am still not following you.
Do you dispute my claim that religion is largely a function of chance?
Or are you arguing that religion is largely a result of your parents choices?
I am afraid it is not at all clear what you are saying.

I'm saying it is a function of choice.
Your injustice does not fit reality.
All the things you complained about were a direct result of human choice.
You choose, even your great grand kids can have their lives affected.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm saying it is a function of choice.
Your injustice does not fit reality.
All the things you complained about were a direct result of human choice.
You choose, even your great grand kids can have their lives affected.
Kelly

So, whether I get to heaven is a function of the choices made by my grandparents?
Do you consider that to be just?

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Do you really think that this is a counter argument?

probably not - but I'm wound up like a snake in basket so there's not much I can do.

Originally posted by ich binimKopfweg
probably not - but I'm wound up like a snake in basket so there's not much I can do.

You could listen to some Coltrane, it might charm you 🙂

Originally posted by Lord Shark
You could listen to some Coltrane, it might charm you 🙂

😀

In a sentimental mood! I'm more a fan of Eric Darius and good old getzy! Actually listening to minnie the moocher atm. Besides boa - constricters cannot be charmed!




😀

Originally posted by twhitehead
So, whether I get to heaven is a function of the choices made by my grandparents?
Do you consider that to be just?

No, that choice is yours God has made the way for all and He calls us, it is
up to us to answer. Getting to Heaven shouldn't be your goal, it is to
acquire a relationship with God that is all that really matters, everything else
is a byproduct and secondary. Being born into a Christian family does not
make you a Christian any more than being born out of one means you cannot
be, the choice is always yours.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, that choice is yours God has made the way for all and He calls us, it is
up to us to answer. Getting to Heaven shouldn't be your goal, it is to
acquire a relationship with God that is all that really matters, everything else
is a byproduct and secondary. Being born into a Christian family does not
make you a Christian any more than being born out of one means you cannot
be, the choice is always yours.
Kelly

So you are changing your story now? A moment ago you admitted that our parents choices were involved, now you deny it? Why the change? Will you change back after I show that your current claim is flawed?
Maybe you can explain this to me: why is it that more people born in countries that have a predominantly Christian population choose to be Christian, than those in a predominantly Muslim country? Would you at least agree that the 'way' that God has made is not equal for all?
I am not claiming that being born into a Christian family makes you a Christian, (I was born into one myself). But I am claiming that it has a very significant influence (I am the only atheist in my family). I would estimate the influence to be over 75%.
You call it a choice, yet I am sure you are well aware that it is not a choice at all. I certainly never chose not to be a Christian.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you are changing your story now? A moment ago you admitted that our parents choices were involved, now you deny it? Why the change? Will you change back after I show that your current claim is flawed?
Maybe you can explain this to me: why is it that more people born in countries that have a predominantly Christian population choose to be Christian, th are well aware that it is not a choice at all. I certainly never chose not to be a Christian.

I am not changing my story, I said all of our choices matter and where you
live were part of that choice, how you raise your kids are part of our choices
as well. Nothing altered there I have not altered my views.

The word of God is equal to all, all have the ability to answer God's call
upon their lives no matter what area of the world they live in. The cost is
more in some areas, other areas it is harder because of distractions of
pleasures and pride, it is different everywhere, yet God honors His Word
and answers prayers to those who seek Him.

You have to have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, that is
a choice/call you have to make on your own, no one can do that for you.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I am not changing my story, I said all of our choices matter and where you
live were part of that choice, how you raise your kids are part of our choices
as well. Nothing altered there I have not altered my views.

OK then. Answer this question clearly: Do our parents choices affect our chances of getting into heaven? So far you have been a little unclear on that.

The word of God is equal to all, all have the ability to answer God's call
upon their lives no matter what area of the world they live in. The cost is
more in some areas, other areas it is harder because of distractions of
pleasures and pride, it is different everywhere, yet God honors His Word
and answers prayers to those who seek Him.
You are just confusing me. First you say it is equal, then you proceed to say it is unequal. Which is it?
How do you explain the different percentages of Christians in different countries?

You have to have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, that is
a choice/call you have to make on your own, no one can do that for you.
Kelly
Quite so. But first you must believe in his existence, which is not a choice at all. Even worse for your case is that I rather doubt that anyone who believes in his existence would make any other choice.
So there really isn't much choice involved.

Originally posted by twhitehead
OK then. Answer this question clearly: Do our parents choices affect our chances of getting into heaven? So far you have been a little unclear on that.

[b]The word of God is equal to all, all have the ability to answer God's call
upon their lives no matter what area of the world they live in. The cost is
more in some areas, other areas it is harder b ...[text shortened]... ves in his existence would make any other choice.
So there really isn't much choice involved.

[/b]Everyone and everything can affect our choices! Our lives are choices
being played out and they are filled with direct consequences good and bad
due to our choices. Our parent’s choices can make it easy or hard, but in
the end their choices do not take away yours, mine, or anyone else's
ability to make our own choices toward Jesus Christ or away from Him, we
in the end have to make our own choice.

When we choose to make life harder to do something, it is us making it
harder, when we choose to make easy, it is us making it easy. If you have
an area where the people in that area are making it harder, it is by choice
that is occuring, again we choose, we live and die by our choices!

We can choose to make life easy for those living next to us, give helping
hands to those that need it, we can choose to live only for ourselves, and
everyone lives and dies by our choices.

I do not see God being unjust in this, I see us being unjust in this if there
is unjustice taking place.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not see God being unjust in this, I see us being unjust in this if there
is unjustice taking place.

Yet God put us here (despite the whole Adam did it story), and it seem that despite your talk of choices, there is a distinct bias towards certain countries and situations that affects whether or not people become Christian. So would you or would you not say that:
1. It is not a choice where we are born and who our parents are.
2. That where we are born and who our parents are has a very strong impact on whether or not we are Christian as adults.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet God put us here (despite the whole Adam did it story), and it seem that despite your talk of choices, there is a distinct bias towards certain countries and situations that affects whether or not people become Christian. So would you or would you not say that:
1. It is not a choice where we are born and who our parents are.
2. That where we are born and who our parents are has a very strong impact on whether or not we are Christian as adults.

I have a bias towards reacting very badly when confronted with certain
things, I however have the choice to behave badly or not. I am telling
you our world is filled with people making choices and we are living with
those choices. God set it up so it was the best possible beginning for us,
we by our choices ruined it, but God is bringing it back around to the best
again. The evil that was introduced into this world is nothing but a bump
in the road towards an eternal Kingdom that is coming here.

Where we are, what we have been exposed to, what we have done in
the past, what we are currently doing, all the pressures of this life cannot
stand between us and God. Being in other countries or being here there
are pressures to keep us from God, the pressures are different but they
are real. Besides, give this country time, I imagine soon and very soon
being a Christian here will be no different than being one else where. The
tide is turning here as it has else where.

Correct you have no choice in who your parents are, but your parents had
a choice in having you. Human choices are in play throughout as I told you,
and not all of them are going to be yours! Only you can make your choices.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
God set it up so it was the best possible beginning for us, we by our choices ruined it, but God is bringing it back around to the best again.

I keep seeing people make this claim, and I actually take offence. Which of my choices was it that "ruined it"? Either explain how I had a part in it, or retract your statement.

Being in other countries or being here there
are pressures to keep us from God, the pressures are different but they
are real.

Correct you have no choice in who your parents are, but your parents had
a choice in having you. Human choices are in play throughout as I told you,
and not all of them are going to be yours! Only you can make your choices.
Kelly
You seem to see-saw between claims and don't seem to be willing to give any straight answers at all.
I am trying to ascertain whether or not my parents choices affect my chances of getting into heaven and you don't seem to be able to give a straight answer. Why? What is so hard about answering the question?