The Schoolgirl The Nazis and The Purple Triangles

Originally posted by sonship

Let it be known that you have not provided a single Biblical reference where Jesus instructed others to worship him, no not a single iota

John 5:21,22 - [b]"For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

He who does not honor the ...[text shortened]... ss will probably come back and say something like "Oh no, no , no ... that is not worship."

It's not worship. Unless you think that honoring your mother and your father means you should worship your mother and father. I think that might get you into trouble with the Big Grumpy Sky Fairy though.

... Big Grumpy Sky Fairy though.

You still into Argument by Ridicule ?

Ummm -Honor the Son EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER ... would include everything up to and including worship.

Back to the skeptic drawing board with ya.

Originally posted by Kepler
It's not worship. Unless you think that honoring your mother and your father means you should worship your mother and father. I think that might get you into trouble with the Big Grumpy Sky Fairy though.

Of course its not worship, the contortions that one must go through in order to try to even infer that Christ should be worshipped are grotesque. Its the most alarming thing, for in thinking that they are honouring the father and the son, they are actually engaging in an act of idolatry, oblivious to the fact!

Its amazing how honouring someone should suddenly become worshipping them as soon as the term is used in conjunction with Jesus, they do the same with obeisance, a simple eastern salutation, but as soon as it comes to Jesus, it gets translated as worship, they are shamelessly biased.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
of course its not worship, the contortions that one must go through in order to try to even infer that Christ should be worshipped are grotesque.

Its good that you and Kepler see eye to eye on not honoring the Son as one honors the Father. Why am I not surprised that a trolling career skeptical atheist and a Jehovah's Witness are partners here ?

Now, you believe what you want. I know that the higher we honor and worship Jesus the HAPPIER the Father is.

And in Revelation the multitude honors and worships God and the Lamb -

"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne AND TO THE LAMB be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

And the four living creatures said Amen. And the elders fell down AND WORSHIPPED." (Rev. 5:13,14)

UNIVERSAL worship of God and the Redeeming Lamb.

Maybe you should get troll Kepler the Atheist to come down to the kingdom hall and help you Witnesses to beef up on your ridicule of the Christian faith.

Originally posted by sonship
Its good that you and Kepler see eye to eye on not honoring the Son as one honors the Father. Why am I not surprised that a trolling career skeptical atheist and a Jehovah's Witness are partners here ?

Now, you believe what you want. I know that the higher we honor and worship Jesus the HAPPIER the Father is.

And in Revelation the multitude honors a o the kingdom hall and help you Witnesses to beef up on your ridicule of the Christian faith.

I do not mind appealing to atheists, for although their stance is irrational and unscientific, at least they can remain more objective than most evangelical Christians I have met.

(Matthew 4:9, 10) Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Why should I have any comment, is it some kind of direction given by Christ to his followers that they should worship him? If you are going to use it as a pretext for claiming that Christ and the father are the same entity, as i suspect you are, then you are going to have to explain, how the disciples also became part of the same entity,

(John 1 ...[text shortened]... ome significance is nothing more than unity from the Greek, hen, to show oneness in cooperation.

I probably should understand this a little better than I do considering I know people and have family members that are JW's. Do you (Jehovah's Witness) believe in the death, burial, and resurection of Jesus Christ, who after being resurected from the dead, showed himself alive, was on earth for 40 days and then ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand of God?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:33 KJV)

Perhaps Jesus may not have said 'I am God', it seems however that this was exactly what was understood by the jews at the time according to the above reference.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Revelation 22:13 KJV)

If I am not mistaken, this seems like a proclamation to me, is it not?

Originally posted by kd2acz
I probably should understand this a little better than I do considering I know people and have family members that are JW's. Do you (Jehovah's Witness) believe in the death, burial, and resurection of Jesus Christ, who after being resurected from the dead, showed himself alive, was on earth for 40 days and then ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand o elation 22:13 KJV)

If I am not mistaken, this seems like a proclamation to me, is it not?

Q. Do you (Jehovah's Witness) believe in the death, burial, and resurection of Jesus Christ, who after being resurected from the dead, showed himself alive, was on earth for 40 days and then ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand of God?

A. Yes, these events can be Biblically established.

Assertion: this was exactly what was understood by the jews at the time according to the above reference.

A. Hardly it was Christs enemies who made the assertion, not Christ himself.

Interesting is that you have not mentioned that Christ stated that the Father is greater than he, that he can do nothing of his own initiative, strange for some who is allegedly almighty or that he subjects himself to God after his resurrection, why not?

Indeed perhaps you can explain this reference that has been cited twice and ignored as many times,

(Matthew 4:9, 10) Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

Let us examine some Bible texts that refer to Jesus and to God, and we will see what some commentators who lived before the Athanasian Creed was formulated thought about those texts.

“I and the Father are one.”—JOHN 10:30.

Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) commented: “Since He said ‘one’ thing, let the heretics understand that He did not say ‘one’ person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. . . . Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection.”—Treatise Concerning the Trinity, chapter 27.

“The Father is greater than I am.”—JOHN 14:28.

Irenaeus (c. 130-200 C.E.): “We may learn through Him [Christ] that the Father is above all things. For ‘the Father,’ says He, ‘is greater than I.’ The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge.”—Against Heresies, Book II, chapter 28.8.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—JOHN 17:3.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 C.E.): “To know the eternal God, the giver of what is eternal, and by knowledge and comprehension to possess God, who is first, and highest, and one, and good. . . . He then who would live the true life is enjoined first to know Him ‘whom no one knows, except the Son reveal (Him).’ (Matt. 11:27) Next is to be learned the greatness of the Saviour after Him.”—Who Is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved? VII, VIII.

“One God and Father of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all.”—EPHESIANS 4:6.

Irenaeus: “And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ.”—Against Heresies, Book V, chapter 18.2.

These early writers clearly understood these verses to describe the Father as supreme, over everything and everyone including Jesus Christ. Their comments give no hint that they believed in a Trinity.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I do not mind appealing to atheists, for although their stance is irrational and unscientific, at least they can remain more objective than most evangelical Christians I have met.

(Matthew 4:9, 10) Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

Not an atheist so if you want their help try appealing to them directly. I am happy to admit I don't know whether or not a god exists. I consider the question of whether or not a god exists to be unknowable based on the (lack of) evidence that I have seen thus far. I know of nothing in this universe that requires a god to explain it.

If he trinitarians are truthful they will admit that their understanding stems not from scripture but by means of the extra Biblical Athanasian Creed. I call you forth to confess your sins and to renounce the dogma.

Originally posted by Kepler
Not an atheist so if you want their help try appealing to them directly. I am happy to admit I don't know whether or not a god exists. I consider the question of whether or not a god exists to be unknowable based on the (lack of) evidence that I have seen thus far. I know of nothing in this universe that requires a god to explain it.

Ok, it was an assumption that you were an atheist based on sonships rather bitter tirade, I apologise for having assumed as much.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Perhaps this might help you, when questioned on what constituted appropriate worship, what did Jesus infact instruct others to do? hmmm,

(Matthew 4:8-11) Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down ...[text shortened]... sacred service.’” Then the Devil left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him.

It was written, "YHWH God you must worship and Him alone you must serve." There is no blasphemous "Jehovah" anywhere in the text. Moses or Abraham never knew of any god by that blasphemous name. The name given to Moses was Yah meaning "I am" and also the name of the Word of God, who was God from the beginning and was was made flesh to save His people from their sins.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
It was written, "YHWH God you must worship and Him alone you must serve." There is no blasphemous "Jehovah" anywhere in the text. Moses or Abraham never knew of any god by that blasphemous name. The name given to Moses was Yah meaning "I am" and also the name of the Word of God, who was God from the beginning and was was made flesh to save His people from ...[text shortened]... s.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Call it what you will, the scripture states that the Father alone is to receive worship. Pity that for your extra Biblical dogma.

the conductor

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Ok, it was an assumption that you were an atheist based on sonships rather bitter tirade, I apologise for having assumed as much.

No need to apologise, I was just correcting a misconception. "Atheist" is the usual label that sondribble and Revd. Hindquarters plonk on anyone who doesn't agree with them and doesn't espouse some form of fairy worship. I assume that anyone worshipping the wrong sky fairy is a Satanist.

I remain to be convinced by any of the god bothering fraternity but do not say that I am absolutely certain that none of them are correct. Except Revd. Hindquarters, if he is correct show me the way to hell! Of all those of a religious inclination I have talked to in the past, Jehovah's Witnesses have been those that came closest to convincing me simply because they were willing to discuss matters and even consider things from my perspective.

Originally posted by Kepler
No need to apologise, I was just correcting a misconception. "Atheist" is the usual label that sondribble and Revd. Hindquarters plonk on anyone who doesn't agree with them and doesn't espouse some form of fairy worship. I assume that anyone worshipping the wrong sky fairy is a Satanist.

I remain to be convinced by any of the god bothering fraternity but d ...[text shortened]... because they were willing to discuss matters and even consider things from my perspective.

The problem for them is that they have taken a stance which cannot be expressed rationally, when they are therefore challenged, they become emotive.