The Spirit was not yet

Originally posted by KellyJay
None of this to me suggest that Jesus had the ingredients to make a pie, cake, or the
Holy Spirit. You calling something an ingredient isn't making it one.

The typology of the anointing oil is not about a pie or a cake per se. It is about the compounding of the finest spices into the olive oil. And if you cannot appreciate that what is being symbolized there are ingredients being blended, compounded, and added to the BASE substance which clearly means the Spirit of God, that is your own shortsightedness.

You think it is funny.
Some of us think it is rather serious and wonderful.

I am not going to spend a lot of effort arguing with you.
You'll find me seemingly to just talk past you.

I'll just count you out as going along with my sharing.
But one could use the word "attributes" rather than ingredients.
My conscience is clear, however, to speak of the ingredients of the Spirit that the glorified Christ became - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

So before I go back to Exodus 30 let me hasten to deal with what some might find as a problem.

The New Testament refers to the Spirit of God that was in the prophets in the Old Testament as "the Spirit of Christ that was in them".

Aha! Did I get caught now ?? I said that John 7 speaks of "the Spirit was not yet". But Peter speaks of the Spirit of Christ in relationship to the Old Testament prophets.

Would this render incorrect then that the Spirit of Christ was YET even before Jesus was glorified ?

Think on it a bit. Has a monkey wrench been thrown into the theology I put forth by this verse?

" Concerning this salvation the prophets, who prophesied concerning the grace that was to come unto you, sought and searched diligently,

Searching into what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them was making clear, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glories after these." (1 Peter 1:11)

So, how can I say, John means that in any way the Spirit of the New Testament Christ was not yet ?

Originally posted by sonship (OP)
The word given in the KJV is supplied by the translators in John 7:39. It does not appear in the original language. And the RcV translates verse 39 as "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

I have never discussed this before, I don't think, on this Forum. The time has come examine this with some of y ...[text shortened]... the Spirit was not yet ?

2.) What does it mean that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit ?

sonship,who and/or what is "the Spirit"?

Well, some ancient manuscripts omit the phrase "of Christ" in First Peter 1:11. But respectable old manuscripts include it also.

The Spirit of Christ that was in the OT prophets seems to contradict that interpretation which says John 7 says "the Spirit was not yet".

1.) If we say that the Spirit was not yet GIVEN, we have to admit that Peter in First Peter 1:11 DOES at least say that Spirit was GIVEN to the Old Testament prophets.

2.) If we say that the Spirit of Christ was simply NOT YET, then we have to explain how the Spirit Christ WAS YET in the Old Testament prophets as First Peter 1:11 said.

I have to suspend for a moment.
Be back latter to discuss.

Originally posted by sonship
The typology of the anointing oil is not about a pie or a cake per se. It is about the compounding of the finest spices into the olive oil. And if you cannot appreciate that what is being symbolized there are ingredients being blended, compounded, and added to the BASE substance which clearly means the Spirit of God, that is your own shortsightedness.

Yo ...[text shortened]... the glorified Christ became - [b]"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) [/b]

I think it sad that you'd reduce the Spirit of God to something akin to making a pie yes.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think it sad that you'd reduce the Spirit of God to something akin to making a pie yes.

Oh, make up your mind Kelly. You think its funny then you think its sad.
Funny or sad ?

Hebrews says that Jesus became the Author of eternal salvation. The question is how did He become the Author of eternal salvation ?

Was it by His death and resurrection ? YES INDEED. By His redemptive death He became that Author of our salvation. But should we think it is only by that part of His life?

How about when He was 24 years old and working hard in a carpenter's shop?
How about when He was 22 years old and witnessed His parents have financial difficulties?
How about when He was 21 and was perhaps mistreated by other young people in the city?
How about when He was maybe 20 and was being tempted by some girl who had her eye on Him?

How about when He was 18, 16, 14 and went through sore troubles and trials ?
How about throughout His entire life as a human being?

"Hence He should have been made like His brothers in all things that He might become a merciful and faithful High Priest in the things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

For being tempted in that which He Himself has suffered, He is able to help those who are being tempted." (Heb. 2:17,18)

You see the man Jesus throughout all of His life was being perfected and preparing for us a perfect life. It was not JUST His death on the cross for our forgiveness. He whole life as a unique God-man, a perfect man, was the ingredients that constituted the Spirit of Christ that imparts Himself as life to us.

So it is quite profitable to enumerate in some of all the ways the Spirit of Christ included His fine human living. The typology of the four fine spices compounded into the olive oil
are a type of the living of Jesus going into the eternal Spirit of God.

What was Jesus doing for those 33 plus years? He was preparing for us a life for us.

I say again that Jesus was preparing a life for us. We can never go too low that He is not underneath us. We can never walk through a trial that He cannot endure.

He Himself is the bountiful supply that makes all our situations turn out rather to salvation. Even as Paul said chained in prison -

"For I know that for me this shall turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:19)

BOUNTIFUL because in His Spirit are all the ingredients of the victorious living of the God-man.

How can I say the Spirit was not YET if Peter says the Spirit of Christ informed the prophets of the Old Testament?

The footnote on [b]First Peter 1:11 of the RcV helps:

The highly respected Vaticanus MS omits, of Christ. This omission fits into the New Testament revelation concerning the Spirit. However, the other authoritative MSS have of Christ in their text. In the New Testament revelation the Spirit of Christ denotes the Spirit after Christ's resurrection (Rom. 8:9-11). Before Christ's resurrection, the Spirit of Christ was not yet (John 7:39). The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God constituted through and with the death and resurrection of Christ for the impartation of Christ's death and resurrection to his believers.

[My spacing]

Although the constituting of the Spirit of Christ is dispensational - i.e., the Spirit of Christ was constitited dispensationally through and with Christ's death and resurrection in the New Testament time - the function of the Spirit of Christ is eternal, because He is the eternal Spirit (Heb 9:14).

[My spacing]

This is like the cross of Christ: as an event, it was accomplished at the time of Christ's death, yet its function is eternal; hence, in the eternal sight of God, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). In the Old Testament times the Spirit of God, as the Spirit of Christ, made the time and the manner of time concerning Christ's death and resurrection clear to the prophets who were seeking and searching diligently concerning the sufferings and glories of Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
Oh, make up your mind Kelly. You think its funny then you think its sad.
Funny or sad ?

[b] Hebrews says that Jesus became the Author of eternal salvation. The question is how did He become the Author of eternal salvation ?

Was it by His death and resurrection ? YES INDEED. By His redemptive death He became that Author of our salvation. ...[text shortened]... d into the olive oil
are a type of the living of Jesus going into the eternal Spirit of God.[/b]

"Funny or sad ? "

Pick one who cares!
You've reduced the Spirit of God down to a cake mix by your reasoning.

CJB Genesis
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water.

Romans 8:9
But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit — provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn’t have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn’t belong to him.

Originally posted by KellyJay

You've reduced the Spirit of God down to a cake mix by your reasoning.

I am doing the opposite. I am explaining how RICH a Person the Spirit of Christ is.

I am explaining why Paul describes this One with the phrase "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ"


But why should you only hear from me.
Let's hear a little from Christian teachers of the past.

In a similar instance of typology the mingling of fine flour with oil speaks symbolically of the the Spirit of God uniting with certain ingredients in the producing of the Lord.

J.N. Darby speaks of the type of the cake of fine flour mingled with oil.

Bahlal , It cannot, I think, be doubted that this is more than, and intended to be more than mahshagh "anointed." "Mixed," "mingled," is the sense of the word. In Psalm 92:10 it is not merely "anointed" as consecration, but his whole system is invigorated and strengthened by it; it formed his strength; hence it is "fresh oil" there.

To get some backround look up Leviticus 2:4 This does concern a cake like entity.

Heysychius of Jerusalem (A.D. 410-450) comments on the symbolism of the making of this cake like food.

"The intention of the law-giver is admirable, delicately spreading through all things: because the above passage makes mention of the knowledge or of the conception of God, you should not at all judge that the mystery of the dispensation of the Lord [Jesus] is beyond that., but see in what way He sets it forth through enigmas, wanting to introduce the narration of His birth, crucifixion and resurrection. The meal offering calls to mind the incarnation of Christ for which end he was incarnated that He might be offered. Because of this John the Baptist calls Him the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world ...

[my spacing]

He says concerning which he offers: "He pours out the oil upon it;" this moreover, because it signifies the piety of the Incarnated One, does not say that he pours out the oil, but that, "He sets forth the cakes mingled with oil." By these words he signifies the birth of the Lord. Moreover in its consequences he is even signifying His passion."

A "cake" can be emblematic of Jesus Christ.
A "cake" anointed and mingled with oil can be typology of the incarnation of Christ
And the same principle hold for the compounding of the holy anointing oil.

We are exalting Spirit of Christ in the types rather as you accuse, reducing Him.

Originally posted by sonship
The word given in the KJV is supplied by the translators in [b]John 7:39. It does not appear in the original language. And the RcV translates verse 39 as "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

I have never discussed this before, I don't think, on this Forum. The time has come examine this with some of you ...[text shortened]... Spirit was not yet ?

2.) What does it mean that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit ?[/b]

how do you feel about the sentence 'the universe was not yet'.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
how do you feel about the sentence 'the universe was not yet'.

Where does that utterance occur? Is that something you read in the Bible ?

I think it is a useful term given the limitations of human language.

Originally posted by sonship
Where does that utterance occur? Is that something you read in the Bible ?

I think it is a useful term given the limitations of human language.

it 'occurred' when I wrote it to you, I should have clarified that it was directed from an atheistic view of the universe.

edit: on a scale of 1-10 how limited it the human language?.........#ismellbs

KellyJay, are you also prone to say Paul reduced the Holy Spirit to water coming from a rock in his Corinthian letter ?

They drank from that Rock that followed them. And that Rock was Christ Paul writes.
Do you regard that as reducing Christ or reducing the Spirit of God ?

I find it exalting and expounding helpfully on the typology of the Old Testament.

" And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ." ( 1 Cor. 10:4)

Are you unhappy with Paul for reducing the Wonderful Person of Christ to a rock ?

The typology of the Old Testament helps us to appreciate and exalt both Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Here again in The English Man's Bible Thomas Newberry discuses the Person of Christ in the symbolism of the fine flour in Leviticus 2:4.

The "fine flour" is emblematic of the pure, holy humanity of the Son of Man, the woman's seed, the virgin's Son ...

[My spacing]

"Mingled with oil" ..." As every particle of the fine flour was saturated with oil, so every thought, every feeling, of the Man Christ Jesus was pervaded by the Holy Spirit. He was in every respect truly human, but in no one respect was He merely human; it was, if we may so express it, a spiritualized humanity. He was full of the Holy Spirit even from His infancy (Matt. 1:20; Luke 1:35), and as He oncreased in years we read, "and the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon him." (Luke 2:40)

The symbol of a cake mingled with oil is used to exalt Christ and not disrespectfully "reduce" Him as you accuse me.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
it 'occurred' when I wrote it to you, I should have clarified that it was directed from an atheistic view of the universe.

I have no problem with the phrase basically.
How else could we possibly describe the matter of "prior" to the creation of the universe ?