The Stephen Fry problem

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Freewill invariably gets the blame.

"Why daddy did our village get wiped out by that plague and cataclysmic earthquake?"
"That was freewill son."

Most bad things that happen to good people are due to sinful behavior by other human beings.

Never said (nor do I think anyone has) that every bad thing that happens to good people is due to sinful behavior by other human beings.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
"Why daddy did our village get wiped out by that plague and cataclysmic earthquake?"
"That was freewill son."

Or better yet... "Who cares, kid. We live and die without any intrinsic purpose. It's all random. Tomorrow is not promised and there is no afterlife. Feel better? Now suck it up and get back on the internet. You'll feel better if you blame this on some Christians."

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Freewill invariably gets the blame.

"Why daddy did our village get wiped out by that plague and cataclysmic earthquake?"
"That was freewill son."

Do people search out God or draw close to Him in a crisis or after a natural disaster?

Do people search out God or draw close to Him when everything is going great in their lives?

Something to consider.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Or better yet... "Who cares, kid. We live and die without any intrinsic purpose. It's all random. Tomorrow is not promised and there is no afterlife. Feel better? Now suck it up and get back on the internet. You'll feel better if you blame this on some Christians."

It's seems a bit of a pity if the thing that gives your life "purpose" is the fact you are convinced there is an afterlife.

Originally posted by @fmf
It's seems a bit of a pity if the thing that gives your life "purpose" is the fact you are convinced there is an afterlife.

It's a pity you don't understand (as a "former Christian" especially) that the very act of creation by a Creator gives everything purpose. If this is all random and there is no Creator, then everything in the entire universe has no intrinsic purpose. But you knew that already.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
It's a pity you don't understand (as a "former Christian" especially) that the very act of creation by a Creator gives everything purpose. If this is all random and there is no Creator, then everything in the entire universe has no intrinsic purpose. But you knew that already.

Don't get me wrong, if your conjecture about supernatural things gives your life purpose and meaning - and if it helps you to behave in a morally sound way - then I'm fine with it; good for you. But presumably you find other intrinsic purposes in life aside from thinking about "the act of creation by a Creator".

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Or better yet... "Who cares, kid. We live and die without any intrinsic purpose. It's all random. Tomorrow is not promised and there is no afterlife. Feel better? Now suck it up and get back on the internet. You'll feel better if you blame this on some Christians."

Where you see randomness, I see beauty. Where you see lack of purpose, I see the precious nature of life, all the more precious and beautiful due to its fleeting impossibility.

A common error by theists is to assume an existence without God is existence without hope or purpose. This simply isn't true. (I am positively bursting with feelings of hope and purpose). But I do understand why you prefer your God narrative, which provides you with the comfort and reassurance you clearly need to cope with the reality of mortality.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Where you see randomness, I see beauty. Where you see lack of purpose, I see the precious nature of life, all the more precious and beautiful due to its fleeting impossibility.

A common error by theists is to assume an existence without God is existence without hope or purpose. This simply isn't true. (I am positively bursting with feelings of ho ...[text shortened]... des you with the comfort and reassurance you clearly need to cope with the reality of mortality.

"Fleeting impossibility." Sounds poetic, but is nonsensical.

No, theists assume (and rightly so) that if there is no creation, then there is no intrinsic purpose. And that's not even debatable.

Doing kind gestures for people and all that is great, and does give someone a personal daily purpose. But it has nothing to do with an overall intrinsic purpose as relates to the human race. If all this is random and nothing was created, then there simply is no intrinsic purpose and all is for naught (but for the fleeting daily purposes creatures make up for themselves via instinct or conscious decision).

Originally posted by @philokalia
Elaborate on your position on Job, then.

Many, but not all, bad things that happen to good people are caused by the actions of other beings. However, it is not a given that every single one of these things must be allowed to happen to preserve free will. Further, there are other bad things that may happen to good people, such as tornados and volcanic eruptions, that are outside the control of any being (other than God). For those last especially, there is no satisfactory explanation for why they are allowed to happen to good people in a universe containing a loving God capable of stopping them.

In Job, God himself seems to either agree with my last sentence, or suggest that the explanation, such as there is, is either beyond human understanding, or is something humans have no right to know.

In any case, the book deliberately leaves the question unanswered. The lesson of the book is the struggle.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Freewill invariably gets the blame.

"Why daddy did our village get wiped out by that plague and cataclysmic earthquake?"
"That was freewill son."

Which, they ought to know, will not be accepted in a debate without proof. But I am not sure there are theists of this level left on the forum.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
"Fleeting impossibility." Sounds poetic, but is nonsensical.

No, theists assume (and rightly so) that if there is no creation, then there is no [b]intrinsic purpose. And that's not even debatable.

Doing kind gestures for people and all that is great, and does give someone a personal daily purpose. But it has nothing to do with an over ...[text shortened]... he fleeting daily purposes creatures make up for themselves via instinct or conscious decision).[/b]

You're a miracle sir, and I say that in all sincerity. The odds of you being here as an individual are impossibly small, for all your ancestors from the beginning of time meeting at precisely the right moment to bring about your existence. It's like winning the lottery a million times in a row. Impossible.......And yet here you are, even if it is only for a flicker on the history of time.

You say it's nonsensical, but you yourself are a 'fleeting impossibility.' Rejoice in that, not in some deity of your own manufacture.

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
Which, they ought to know, will not be accepted in a debate without proof. But I am not sure there are theists of this level left on the forum.

They're certainly a rare breed sir.

Just now, in another thread, we have the plain daft statement from a theist that there is overwhelming evidence to support the Resurrection of Jesus. (I repeat 'overwhelming' ) and that they dismiss all the other Gods due to lack of evidence.

It is wishful thinking and bordering on plain delusional to believe Christianity provides overwhelming evidence and other religions none at all. (Not to mention the disingenuous notion that they have given fair consideration of the evidence other religions have to offer).

Originally posted by @fmf
It's seems a bit of a pity if the thing that gives your life "purpose" is the fact you are convinced there is an afterlife.

How about convinced there is a God and wanting to live for Him? Not the same thing as convinced there is an afterlife.

But what gives your life purpose, Kiddo? Have you read the book of Ecclesiastes? Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, ruminated on the meaning of life. Know what he concluded?

So, i've let the discussion go to see the various explanations that would arise from Stephen's conjecture and the answer, if you'll allow me to summarize, is that the theists here are basically saying, "bad things, like bone cancer in kids, happen because Eve bit an apple and chose to live with bad things in order to have free will.

They say this because that's what the bible tells them and they believe this explanation to be true. They have no real proof this is true but choose to believe it based on either some esoteric feeling within themselves or just a hard decision to take it on faith.

On the other hand we have the science based folks who believe bone cancer in kids happens because these things just happen in life, For every good thing there are bad things because Life is not perfect, life does not care, life has no agenda. It just happens.

So, if we were to weigh the merits of these two explanations against one another; one based on scientific principles and the other based on what amounts to story telling passed down from one generation to another, can we say that if we "HAD" to choose between the two answers, which one would you bet your children's life on? Would you choose the story telling answer or the science based answer?

I'm pretty sure the atheists here would choose the science answer and the faith based folks would choose the story telling answer. But what i find interesting is WHY the faith-based folks would bet their kids lives based solely on their own beliefs despite any proof. Is it because they fear reprisal from the angry lord that would take this decision as non-belief and in turn cast them out of heaven for eternity, thus making the decision more about the fear of their own punishment....Or, is really just their blind faith saying although I have zero proof, I am willing to bet my kids life on something i believe just because that's what I believe.

I suspect the theists would choose the latter explanation, of course. But all this, choosing to beleive, this giving one's self over to what amounts to not having "freewill" and rejecting any "knowledge"....this really does sound to me as if they are trying to reverse the decision made by Eve...they are trying to live the way we humans would have lived were it not for Eve's decision. Interesting.

Unfortunately, the phrase, "you can never go home again", comes to mind. He kicked us out, yet you behave as if you never left....

Food for thought.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Where you see randomness, I see beauty. Where you see lack of purpose, I see the precious nature of life, all the more precious and beautiful due to its fleeting impossibility.

A common error by theists is to assume an existence without God is existence without hope or purpose. This simply isn't true. (I am positively bursting with feelings of ho ...[text shortened]... des you with the comfort and reassurance you clearly need to cope with the reality of mortality.

<<(I am positively bursting with feelings of hope and purpose).>>

How does that manifest itself in your life and your behavior? Does that manifest itself in your life and behavior?